6 replies to this topic

[allie]

Emperor Jing wanted to reduce the power of the fedual princes and it caused them to rebel.

I felt that Han Wudi method of reducing the powers of the fedual princes works very well. Instead of reducing the size of their terriority, he instead ordered the terriority to be spilted among all the sons of the fedual princes.

This cause each of them to have only a small terriority and they are thus unable to rebell against the Han Dynasty.

Why is it that Emperor Jing never thought of this method?

If he have use this method, perhaps there won't be any rebellion of the 7 states

[SlickSlicer]

The obvious answer to this question is that Emperor Jing preceded Emperor Wu. He had no knowledge of Emperor Wu's policies and there wasn't much precedent for it in more recent (at that time) Chinese history either. Emperor Jing and Emperor Wu both saw the necessity to weaken the power of Imperial princes. However, Emperor Wu had a huge advantage in that Emperor Jing had:

A.) Already started the trend
B.) Tried something that clearly did not work as well, which Emperor Wu sagaciously observed, apparently

By Emperor Wu's time, the principalities that had rebelled during Emperor Jing's time had already been weakened. The failed rebellion was thus in some ways a good thing and an important step toward further centralization, and it also gave Emperor Wu a "leg up."

It's also worth mentioning that Emperor Wu himself appointed many of his sons to positions of power, and several of them were either rebellious or induced to revolt by conditions of the time. Many of them, after their attempted plots at mutiny failed, hung themselves. From what I recall, his son Liu Hong was an exception in that he peacefully governed the realm allotted to him and enjoyed the Emperor's favor. The others were stirring up trouble during Emperor Wu's reign and the reigns of his successors.

Edited by SlickSlicer, 08 August 2011 - 02:18 PM.

[allie]

I think if Emperor Jing need to have some examples of Emperors who before him tried to reduce the fedual lords powers before he could successfully reduce their powers without resulting in a rebellion, than I think he is actually quite a foolish person..

Considering that there are so many ministers in the Han dynasty and nobody could even think of this idea and only Han Wudi could think of this idea, than I think the chinese people are pretty stupid too isn't it?

[SlickSlicer]

I don't think it's as easy as you're saying. The struggle between monarchs and their vassals for power was a sort of ongoing trend throughout much of pre-modern history. Machiavelli commented extensively on it as late as the 16th century, when he wrote The Prince. The fact of the matter is that Emperor Jing was actually somewhat successful in his gambit, rebellion or not. Centralization of power by monarchs has always been difficult. Between Emperor Wu and Emperor Jing, I don't doubt that Emperor Wu was the stronger sovereign. However, that doesn't make Emperor Jing's policies necessarily poor either (other than executing Chao Cuo; he should have listened to Han Fei's advice about "ignoring the slanders of other ministers and reserving punishments and rewards exclusively for the ruler").

Edited by SlickSlicer, 09 August 2011 - 11:47 AM.

[mariusj]

I think if Emperor Jing need to have some examples of Emperors who before him tried to reduce the fedual lords powers before he could successfully reduce their powers without resulting in a rebellion, than I think he is actually quite a foolish person..

Considering that there are so many ministers in the Han dynasty and nobody could even think of this idea and only Han Wudi could think of this idea, than I think the chinese people are pretty stupid too isn't it?

The idea that examples of Emperors before Emperor Jing actually required there to be emperors before Jing

Lets put it this way, the First Emperor had no feudal princes to worry about.

Gao zhu reigned for 7 years, Emp. Hui reigned for 5, Shaodi Gong and Shaodi Hong reigned for 4 years each, then Wendi reigned for 23 years.

Of all the Emperors before Jing, only Wendi could of have any form of long term plans (unless you think reducing feudal prince's power is a short term plan.) Yet, Wendi is a usurper who didn't gain the throne in a great and shinning fashion. He cannot hope to stole the throne from his nephew's kids with support of his brothers, yet strip them of their powers. So ultimately, the earliest attempt would be in the hand of Emperor Jing.

[allie]

The idea that examples of Emperors before Emperor Jing actually required there to be emperors before Jing

Lets put it this way, the First Emperor had no feudal princes to worry about.

Gao zhu reigned for 7 years, Emp. Hui reigned for 5, Shaodi Gong and Shaodi Hong reigned for 4 years each, then Wendi reigned for 23 years.

Of all the Emperors before Jing, only Wendi could of have any form of long term plans (unless you think reducing feudal prince's power is a short term plan.) Yet, Wendi is a usurper who didn't gain the throne in a great and shinning fashion. He cannot hope to stole the throne from his nephew's kids with support of his brothers, yet strip them of their powers. So ultimately, the earliest attempt would be in the hand of Emperor Jing.

Actually, the zhou dynasty experienced the problem of fedual princes becoming too powerful and it even resulted in the fall of zhou dynasty

so there were actually examples before Emperor Jing for him to follow

[mariusj]

Actually, the zhou dynasty experienced the problem of fedual princes becoming too powerful and it even resulted in the fall of zhou dynasty

so there were actually examples before Emperor Jing for him to follow

No, examples to follow suggest someone does something about it, since Zhou did nothing, it means nothing.