30 replies to this topic

[Shifa Shengli]

I always curious about the fact why Zhuge Liang choose to serve Liu Bei instead Cao Cao,,,

Let step aside morality or something like that now,,

Personality, I suspect the main reason was Cao Cao already has a full set of brilliant advisor like Xun Yu, Xun You, Cheng Yu, Guo Jia, Jia Xu so little prospect for Zhuge to standout among such talented people,,, even Sima Yi only given low position as prefecture secretary??

Otherwise, if he joined Liu Bei who lacked talents compared Cao Cao, he would easily rise to the top,,, the fact, he was regarded as most brilliant talent in Shu when there no such thing among Wei strategist

How do you think?

[SlickSlicer]

Cao Cao didn't visit him to try to recruit him, for one thing.

Edited by SlickSlicer, 15 August 2011 - 12:52 AM.

[Ma Su]

It could be that Zhuge Liang wasn't going to join anyone, he had a brother in Wu so could have gone there or served the local government but showed no inclination to do either. Liu Bei's charisma and persistence, combined with a lack of competition in Liu Bei's ranks, certainly seem like good reasons to change his mind.

[Shifa Shengli]

Cao Cao didn't visit him to try to recruit him, for one thing.

ha ha probably it's safe to assume Cao Cao expected Zhuge to visit him like others did,,, not the way around

if iam not wrong almost all talents under him come to join him

Sima Yi got invitation but still he was the one who going over to Cao

[Shifa Shengli]

It could be that Zhuge Liang wasn't going to join anyone, he had a brother in Wu so could have gone there or served the local government but showed no inclination to do either. Liu Bei's charisma and persistence, combined with a lack of competition in Liu Bei's ranks, certainly seem like good reasons to change his mind.

ah yeah i forget,,, Liu Bei's quality also must calculated as decisive factor,,, combination between a chance and leadership quality

[SlickSlicer]

ha ha probably it's safe to assume Cao Cao expected Zhuge to visit him like others did,,, not the way around

if iam not wrong almost all talents under him come to join him

Sima Yi got invitation but still he was the one who going over to Cao

If I recall, the territory of Jing, where Zhuge Liang was living, was still contested at that point. It was pretty unlikely for Zhuge Liang to visit Cao Cao, and considering that Zhuge Liang had done very little at that point in his career, it's likely that Cao Cao hadn't even heard of him at this point.

[Swordsman]

Is it safe to say if Zhuge Liang had joined Cao Cao, Cao Cao would have conquered China in a short time and be Emperor ?

[Ma Su]

Is it safe to say if Zhuge Liang had joined Cao Cao, Cao Cao would have conquered China in a short time and be Emperor ?

I wouldn't say so, think it would be a rather big leap. Hard to see what Zhuge Liang would have offered Cao Cao on the miliatry front to have changed things. It would have weakened Liu Bei's administration true but I can't see Liu Bei failing to take Yi and Hanzhong and Yi had good ministers, just if Liu Bei could have used them to run his kingdom's administration.

[Loong]

From a behavioural point, you would see Zhuge Liang is somewhat quite sentimental. He does have a very big part of him dedicated to friendship, relationship. Even to the extent of serving Ah Dou.

This could prove the point of him serving under Liu Bei, and I would think Liu Bei is a master of human manipulation (or rather a HR genius).

[jamjoh]

You can't put morality aside. Think of the times and the beliefs of the people. Cao Cao had already demonstrated that the Emperor was under his thumb so to speak. I was his strict policy to no usurp the throne, but who needs to be an emperor if you can completely control an emperor. Zhuge Liang would have known the emperor had become a puppet of Cao Cao and he would have held the belief that the emperor was the son of heaven. It was probable that Zhuge Liang would have felt it the moral thing to do to restore the emperor. If he can't restore the emperor then Lui Bei is the next best thing since he may have been related to the emperor (questionable but a lot of people in China believed that at the time).

So why didn't Zhuge Liang serve Cao Cao? Because it was against the will of heaven.

[sima old bandit]

ha ha probably it's safe to assume Cao Cao expected Zhuge to visit him like others did,,, not the way around

if iam not wrong almost all talents under him come to join him

Sima Yi got invitation but still he was the one who going over to Cao

Sima Yi initially declined to serve Cao Cao actually and Cao Cao threatened him so that certainly persuaded him.

Liu Bei was weak at that point and his 3 visits to Zhuge Liang to gain a talented minister demonstrated his humility at this point just as great founding emperors in history had done. By contrast Cao Cao uses says serve or off with your head.

[Shifa Shengli]

Cao Cao uses says serve or off with your head.

what a crazy one side persuasion,, LOL

[longbaby]

^{Zhuge Liang was an old-fashioned man. He had a strong sense of so-called "orthodox" and in Three Kingdoms, the surname of "LIu" means "orthodox". So he went to serve Liu Bei instead of Cao Cao.}

Edited by longbaby, 31 October 2012 - 02:42 AM.

[alantas]

He agreed to serve Liu Bei mainly to stop Liu Bei pestering him for the fourth and N'th time. That, plus his two hooligan sworn brothers were beginning to be angry at him. And you can't really fight a Dragon crest sabre and a Snake tongue spear with a fan can you?



Jokes aside, rommantically, he served Liu Bei as he was touched by him. In the mordern world, imagine if the CEO of a company, albeit a smaller one, were to aproach you 3 times himself with 2 of his most senior colleagues in the firm - despite you not returning his calls.

He was also being promised to be heard, and his position as first advisor was pretty much on the cards.

Regarding that he chose Liu Bei just because he could fast-track his career instead of competing with others - I doubt it very much; picking Liu Bei who was fledging and didn't even have a steady base and not picking say, Sun Quan or Cao Cao whom both had vast influencial regions, money and military strength... can be pretty much termed as "career-dead" and not to mention a whole shitstorm of work to do by yourself.

Zhuge Liang under Cao Cao would indeed have fast-tracked Cao Cao's expansion for a couple of reasons - Sun Quan would not have stood against him at Chi Bi; Liu Bei would not have any one capable enough to advise him, and build up a capable stronghold to keep Cao Cao and his descendents busy. We probably see a Wei Dynasty instead of the Jin, and it could have been really quite good with the amount of talent Cao Cao had. Zhuge Liang's talent in military precaution in co-junction with the cunning and brilliance of Cao Cao's harem of strategist would steam roll Sun Quan's Zhou Yu. Zhuge Liangs extraordinary talent in administration would have helped Cao Cao's territories boom and her population be more content.

[Ma Su]

I agree with most of you say but think fast tracking was still a part of it. Liu Bei may have been a bad place but there was still potential there and get in early, Liang would be in a really good place. Whereas he would be joining Wei at nearish the bottom and be forever Jin's brother in Wu, it's a long climb up.

Sun Quan would have stood against Wei, Zhuge Liang didn't do that well as envoy, Liu Bei could have got where he did by himself with Liang only becoming a hole once Liu Bei needs a skilled and trusted administratior. It is after the fall of Yi where I think a Liang in Wei changes things.