18 replies to this topic

[allie]

Which of the dynasties in china have the greatest territority under their control?

I think should be the Yuan Dynasty as they almost conquer the whole world during their peak period.

[tempus]

I think should be the Yuan Dynasty as they almost conquer the whole world during their peak period.

and when did they conquer almost the whole world? in their dreams?
Yuan armies weren't able to defeat even Dai Viet and Japan...

[allie]

http://en.wikipedia....er_Genghis_Khan

Contrary to popular belief, Genghis Khan did not conquer all of the areas of the Mongol Empire. At the time of his death, the Mongol Empire stretched from the Caspian Sea to the Sea of Japan. The empire's expansion continued for a generation or more after Genghis's death in 1227. Under Genghis's successor Ögedei Khan the speed of expansion reached its peak. Mongol armies pushed into Persia, finished off the Xi Xia and the remnants of the Khwarezmids, and came into conflict with the imperial Song Dynasty of China, starting a war that would last until 1279 and that would conclude with the Mongols gaining control of all of China. They also pushed further into Russia and eastern Europe.

[mingsquared]

The Yuan Dynasty, although there are some concerns about whether or not it should be considered "Chinese". In the event that the Yuan isn't "Chinese" then the Qing would be the largest dynasty in terms of landmass.

[allie]

The Yuan Dynasty, although there are some concerns about whether or not it should be considered "Chinese". In the event that the Yuan isn't "Chinese" then the Qing would be the largest dynasty in terms of landmass.

whats the difference in land size between Yuan and Qing dynasty?

So even the prosperious Han and Tang dynasty land size is less than Qing dynasty?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

One must realize what the ancient consider as part of an empire's domain is very different from modern territory.
Several differences includes:
1) Modern nation states are unambiguous in terms of what land is part of its territory or not. It has direct centralized control over all of its lands, and its territory is often viewed as sacred and inseparable. Ancient empires often does not have direct control over what it consider its territory, instead the control is often indirect or feudal, where we have separate states within the larger empire. Because of this what categorizes as part of the empire's territory has a large subjective factor. Some vassals are quite independent and paid little more than nominal subservience.
2) Modern states have very clear boundary lines ancient empires does not. Precise boundary lines is a fairly new concept and the ancients has more of a boundary zone than a line. Lots of ancient polities do not use boundary lines to define the limits of their territory, rather they determine their domain through the population or villages which one own, especially the nomads. Often the territory between one village or city and another are never drawn out, and hence they are by nature vague. Even more vague are territories which are not shared as boundary zones by two polities but extend indefinitely into uninhabited zones such as the Sahara desert for the Islamic Empire and the Siberian north for Mongolian regimes. The limits of their northern frontier was never drawn out nor had they ever attempted to since it was of little significance, so the territory could vary significantly.

In another word, precise size of ancient empires are virtually impossible to determine due to the subjectivity of labeling what is territory and the vagueness of ancient boundaries.

The Qing would be bigger than the Yuan and Tang if we only consider territory directly under central control. However if we count the indirect territories and the barren wilderness of the north than the Tang and Yuan would have been bigger than the Qing.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 22 September 2011 - 10:53 AM.

[mingsquared]

whats the difference in land size between Yuan and Qing dynasty?

So even the prosperious Han and Tang dynasty land size is less than Qing dynasty?

If you look at the map, the Yuan would be slightly bigger than the Qing.





They were definitely bigger than the Han and the Tang.

[allie]

Yuan dynasty territory is so small meh?

I though they conquer like 70% of the world whereas Qing dynasty only conquer china so Yuan dynasty should be very much bigger than Qing dynasty?

[mingsquared]

Yuan dynasty territory is so small meh?

I though they conquer like 70% of the world whereas Qing dynasty only conquer china so Yuan dynasty should be very much bigger than Qing dynasty?

I think you're referring to the entire Mongol empire. The Yuan was one of four Khanates that divided the Mongol Empire.

[allie]

Yup I was referring to the entire Mongol Empire.

The entire mongol empire is how many times bigger than the Qing dynasty?

Today modern china territority is the same size as Qing dynasty except that they have lost taiwan?

[mingsquared]

Yup I was referring to the entire Mongol Empire.

The entire mongol empire is how many times bigger than the Qing dynasty?

Today modern china territority is the same size as Qing dynasty except that they have lost taiwan?

But the Yuan wasn't the Mongol empire, it was part of the Mongol empire. The other three Khanates don't respond to the authority of the Yuan emperors.

Taiwan and Mongolia, as well as part of Manchuria.

[tempus]

Yup I was referring to the entire Mongol Empire.

The entire mongol empire is how many times bigger than the Qing dynasty?

Today modern china territority is the same size as Qing dynasty except that they have lost taiwan?

Yuan dinasty and Mongol Empire(after Mongke death it could be not considered a single entity), are two different things.

Qing Empire was bigger than modern China. At its peak, Qing controlled Mongolia, lands beyond Amur and Ussuri rivers, eastern part of today Kazakhstan, part of Arunachal Pradesh and of course Taiwan.

Edited by tempus, 24 September 2011 - 12:59 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

The entire mongol empire is how many times bigger than the Qing dynasty?

The entire Mongol Empire is around twice the size of the Qing. However, it had little centralized control and are in reality 4-5 different polities. The territory where the Yuan had effective control was only slightly larger if we extend the northern frontier to around 64 degrees north latitude.
http://www.chinahist...yuan-dynasties/

They were definitely bigger than the Han and the Tang.

The maps you've shown of all four dynasties are not at their height. The Tang at its height was around the same size as the Yuan(again ancient empires do not have clear boundaries and precise sizes), controlling Mongolia, Siberia and Most of Central Asia as well as Afghanistan. Even the Han briefly took Mongolia after it destroyed the Northern Xiongnu in 91 AD.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 25 September 2011 - 09:12 AM.

[mohistManiac]

If the other three Khanates weren't responding to the Yuan dynasty authority which one of the Khanates became responsible for utilizing the lands for intercontinental trade and the Pax Mongolica?

[mingsquared]

If the other three Khanates weren't responding to the Yuan dynasty authority which one of the Khanates became responsible for utilizing the lands for intercontinental trade and the Pax Mongolica?

That doesn't mean they all take orders from the Yuan.