14 replies to this topic

[chinalover]

Why do Chaoshan and Southern Fujian can have their own dialect TV channels but the local people in Shanghai and Fuzhou can't have their own dialect TV channels? Shanghainese speakers and Fuzhou dialect speakers are more than the Teochew speakers in China. Is this fair?

Edited by chinalover, 05 October 2011 - 09:32 PM.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Why do Chaoshan and Southern Fujian can have their own dialect TV channels but the local people in Shanghai and Fuzhou can't have their own dialect TV channels? Shanghainese speakers and Fuzhou dialect speakers are more than the Teochew speakers in China. Is this fair?

Not sure if it's anything concerning the local law of those region. Does the local authorities ban anything about the dialect TV channel?

I'm sure if the authorities allow it and provided there is enough talent and funding for dialect TV Channels, I don't see why it cannot be done.

[bloodmerchant]

It's not just what's on the television, but also parents refusing to pass on their language and heritage, denialism of the distinctiveness of the Han Chinese subgroups, etc...

I am trying hard just so my heritage survives in the next generation, I don't want my language nor my people to go extinct.

[yongzheng freak]

Just out of curiousity - what is the official stand on this subject matter?

[General_Zhaoyun]

I just watched Taiwanese Hokkien opera from Taiwan yesterday and it just makes me feel that my command of Taiwanese is still far from being 'good', as there are many words I still do not know how to pronounce them in Hokkien. There is still a lot of work to do for my self-study of dialect.

Just out of curiousity - what is the official stand on this subject matter?

The official stance by PRC is to continue to promote Mandarin while allowing dialect to survive (without suppressing it).

Not sure why dialect media in Shanghai is still not so widespread and well-established, considering that Shanghai is the most advanced city in China.

Shanghainese is now facing danger of disappearance, as Shanghai is flooded by large number of non-native Shanghainese who are working in Shanghai. Mother tongue preservation remains a challenging job for Shanghainese.

[xng]

Surprisingly, the dialects with substantial number of overseas chinese are surviving. ie. Hokkien, Cantonese.

I hardly see any hakka or shanghainese shows either.

[chinalover]

I just watched Taiwanese Hokkien opera from Taiwan yesterday and it just makes me feel that my command of Taiwanese is still far from being 'good', as there are many words I still do not know how to pronounce them in Hokkien. There is still a lot of work to do for my self-study of dialect.


The official stance by PRC is to continue to promote Mandarin while allowing dialect to survive (without suppressing it).

Not sure why dialect media in Shanghai is still not so widespread and well-established, considering that Shanghai is the most advanced city in China.

Shanghainese is now facing danger of disappearance, as Shanghai is flooded by large number of non-native Shanghainese who are working in Shanghai. Mother tongue preservation remains a challenging job for Shanghainese.

General_Zhaoyun, PRC does not want to protect any regional chinese dialect such as Cantonese. Did you know what happened in Guangzhou? In July 2010, CPPCC wanted to change the Cantonese TV programming to all Mandarin TV programming. This sparked a mass protest in Guangzhou.

Now why is the Cantonese language and culture get pushed around when the Teochew and other groups don't get pushed around by the PRC government?

[General_Zhaoyun]

General_Zhaoyun, PRC does not want to protect any regional chinese dialect such as Cantonese. Did you know what happened in Guangzhou? In July 2010, CPPCC wanted to change the Cantonese TV programming to all Mandarin TV programming. This sparked a mass protest in Guangzhou.

Now why is the Cantonese language and culture get pushed around when the Teochew and other groups don't get pushed around by the PRC government?

Yeah.. heard about the Cantonese protest. The policy is unclear. It's sad ..seems like PRC government does not have a sound policy towards protecting dialects.


Taiwan is doing a much better job in maintaining both Mandarin and promoting other dialects such as Taiwanese Hokkien/Hakka so much so that even dialects are taught in schools.

Note that PRC's policy towards dialects also have political consideration. They promote Hokkien in Southern Fujian province in order to "fight" against Taiwan independence in order to unify China and Taiwan. However, the irony is that developing the languages of Taiwanese Hokkien and Hakka in Taiwan today no longer has anything to do with "Taiwan independence" (unlike 20 years ago when language was a tool used to promote Taiwan independence in Taiwan). It has more to do with preservation of mother tongue in Taiwan.

Cantonese is probably the 2nd most influential dialect after Mandarin and has considerable amount of influence in Overseas Chinese community. Amidst the large number of Cantonese speaker in Hong Kong and democracy movement in Hong Kong, PRC government fears that the Cantonese language will be used as a political tool to push for democracy in Southern China. That's why they are finding ways to clamp down on the Cantonese media in Southern China. IMO, this step has more to do with political consideration. Imagine this.. many Cantonese speakers in Southern China tuned in to media talk about Democracy in Cantonese from Hong Kong. See how this will influence Public opinion against Chinese Communist Party.

The same goes with Shanghainese, which has been westernized to a certain degree. Shanghai has received huge amount of western influence and the PRC government fears that Shanghainese would again be used as a transmission tool to propagate democracy in Shanghai. It also raises fear because Shanghai, Jiangsu, Zhejiang region used to be the political center of nationalist government and many Wu-speakers still had feelings for Chiang Kai Shek. PRC government fears a resurrection of memoirs of ROC. Thus, Shanghainese media was clamped down.

[chinalover]

Yeah.. heard about the Cantonese protest. The policy is unclear. It's sad ..seems like PRC government does not have a sound policy towards protecting dialects.


Taiwan is doing a much better job in maintaining both Mandarin and promoting other dialects such as Taiwanese Hokkien/Hakka so much so that even dialects are taught in schools.

Note that PRC's policy towards dialects also have political consideration. They promote Hokkien in Southern Fujian province in order to "fight" against Taiwan independence in order to unify China and Taiwan. However, the irony is that developing the languages of Taiwanese Hokkien and Hakka in Taiwan today no longer has anything to do with "Taiwan independence" (unlike 20 years ago when language was a tool used to promote Taiwan independence in Taiwan). It has more to do with preservation of mother tongue in Taiwan.

Cantonese is probably the 2nd most influential dialect after Mandarin and has considerable amount of influence in Overseas Chinese community. Amidst the large number of Cantonese speaker in Hong Kong and democracy movement in Hong Kong, PRC government fears that the Cantonese language will be used as a political tool to push for democracy in Southern China. That's why they are finding ways to clamp down on the Cantonese media in Southern China. IMO, this step has more to do with political consideration. Imagine this.. many Cantonese speakers in Southern China tuned in to media talk about Democracy in Cantonese from Hong Kong. See how this will influence Public opinion against Chinese Communist Party.

The same goes with Shanghainese, which has been westernized to a certain degree. Shanghai has received huge amount of western influence and the PRC government fears that Shanghainese would again be used as a transmission tool to propagate democracy in Shanghai. It also raises fear because Shanghai, Jiangsu, Zhejiang region used to be the political center of nationalist government and many Wu-speakers still had feelings for Chiang Kai Shek. PRC government fears a resurrection of memoirs of ROC. Thus, Shanghainese media was clamped down.

The Xiamen dialect and the Taiwanese dialect are the same spoken language. By promoting the Xiamen dialect in China, it may bring Taiwan closer with the Mainland. That sounds logical. However the Teochew dialect is different from Taiwanese. So why isn't the PRC government suppressing the Teochew dialect?

Edited by chinalover, 08 October 2011 - 02:14 PM.

[bloodmerchant]

To me, how the PRC is dealing with it is just nothing more than Northern cultural imperialism. In China, Wu Chinese culture is hardly being promoted at all, only Northeastern Chinese culture is being promoted as the standard of all Chinese culture. To the media, Northeastern dialect is 'normal (though somewhat distinctive)' while Wu Chinese is seen as 'abnormal'. When the older generations die out, the younger generations would know nothing about their past and are raised as Northerners. It is sad and I fear for the extinction of Jiangnanese language and culture because of politically motivated rhetoric. But I do hear that the younger generations are taking notice of such changes and would be more empowered to defend their heritage, even if it means going against their own countrymen. This policy would actually reignite regionalism rather than the other way around. No matter what the PRC does to reverse the trends by teaching it in schools, it's too late. It's going to end up just like Irish Gaelic in Ireland, if I had to be realistic here. Wu Chinese is declining rapidly compared to Cantonese or Hokkien. Another problem is the movement of non-Jiangnanese or non-Wu speakers into Jiangnan and Wu-speaking regions, respectively.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 07 October 2011 - 07:50 PM.

[General_Zhaoyun]

The Xiamen dialect and the Taiwanese dialect are the same spoken language. By promoting the Xiamen dialect in China, it may bring Taiwan closer with the Mainland. That sounds logical. However the Teochew dialect is different from Taiwanese. So why isn't the PRC government suppressing the Teochew dialect?

I believe if you go to Chaoshan region (Teochew speaking region) 30 years ago, many of the native Teochew people cannot speak Mandarin well. I believe Mandarin was only introduced to the schools over there 30 years ago. Teachers in schools used to speak in Teochew. I've been to the Chaoshan region. You hardly hear a word of Mandarin, except in hotel. Only young Teochew speakers can speak Mandarin. You hear Teochew all the time.

Teochew speaking region (Chaoshan) is slightly less economically developed compared to other regions. That's the reason why Teochew is not suppressed over there. But if you read recent news, the Chaoshan region is bringing a series of economic development and in order to bridge the gap, they want to introduce more Mandarin to the region. If more non-native migrant workers flood that region, it will be another case of Mandarin Imperialism over that region.

[General_Zhaoyun]

To me, how the PRC is dealing with it is just nothing more than Northern cultural imperialism. In China, Wu Chinese culture is hardly being promoted at all, only Northeastern Chinese culture is being promoted as the standard of all Chinese culture. To the media, Northeastern dialect is 'normal (though somewhat distinctive)' while Wu Chinese is seen as 'abnormal'. When the older generations die out, the younger generations would know nothing about their past and are raised as Northerners. It is sad and I fear for the extinction of Jiangnanese language and culture because of politically motivated rhetoric. But I do hear that the younger generations are taking notice of such changes and would be more empowered to defend their heritage, even if it means going against their own countrymen. This policy would actually reignite regionalism rather than the other way around. No matter what the PRC does to reverse the trends by teaching it in schools, it's too late. It's going to end up just like Irish Gaelic in Ireland, if I had to be realistic here. Wu Chinese is declining rapidly compared to Cantonese or Hokkien. Another problem is the movement of non-Jiangnanese or non-Wu speakers into Jiangnan and Wu-speaking regions, respectively.

Regionalism and regional protection of these Chinese dialects are needed. I think, sometime in 2009, a radio DJ in Shanghai spoke in Shanghainese. There was a call-in by a non-Shanghainese asking the DJ not to speak in Shanghainese. The DJ ask the Non-Shanghainese to "leave" Shanghai if he is not happy listening to Shanghainese. This has created a controversy and intolerance. I believe Wu-dialects need to be protected for their heritage. If non-Shanghainese wants to work in Shanghai, they need to at least learn Shanghainese and be a "new Shanghainese".

In fact, many new immigrants to Taiwan are asked to learn not just Mandarin but also Taiwanese in order to be "new Taiwanese". That'll help to reduce tension resulted from migration.

[bloodmerchant]

Personally, I believe that speakers of Wu Chinese are too divisive about themselves and their identity. If it were to ever survive, there should be mutual relations between the different Wu Chinese speakers. I am tired of the mutual provincialism and animosity between Shanghainese and other fellow Wu speakers. If I were the DJ, I would have felt the same way. The problem also lies with the older generation who have 1) most of the knowledge and 2) the means to pass on their language. I myself consider Wu Chinese to be my mother tongue but I am not fully conversant in it such as my parents or older relatives. The CCP for the most of its rule, has always been a Northern Han Chinese-friendly government from the start. I do have to say that it is also due to fear about another KMT since the vast majority of its leadership and support was from Jiangnan. (I did hear from my father that my grandfather even contemplated moving to Taiwan.)

Edited by bloodmerchant, 10 October 2011 - 09:55 PM.

[xng]

Personally, I believe that speakers of Wu Chinese are too divisive about themselves and their identity. If it were to ever survive, there should be mutual relations between the different Wu Chinese speakers.

The same is happening to Greater Minnan dialects such as Teociu, Puxian, Hainan, Quanzhou, Zhangzhou, Taiwanese.

There is no effort to come up with a standard Minnan which will ensure a greater number of speakers and ensure the survival after many centuries in the future.

Cantonese has largely survived because there is an existing standard ie. Guangfu dialect based on Guangzhou. I can foresee the other non standard cantonese dialects dying out in a few more centuries but at least the language won't die off.

Edited by xng, 10 October 2011 - 11:56 PM.

[bloodmerchant]

I do hear some instances where there is another second koineization of Wu Chinese (the first happened in the 19th century, forming pre-20th century Shanghainese). Most of the more recent pronunciations in the other Northern Wu dialects have been shifting towards Shanghainese pronunciation. I don't know how this bodes for anyone here, but the distinctions between Northern Wu dialects are decreasing. It would only lead to a stronger, but less diverse language. But if it could help Wu Chinese survive in the long run, so be it. So Northern Wu Chinese is gradually moving towards a standard on its own, literally to the point of emulating Shanghainese. It's mostly the neighboring areas such as Suzhou, Jiaxing or Ningbo. I don't know about Southern Wu Chinese, but I believe that those dialects would largely stay intact. Western Wu, however, is the most endangered and is facing attrition from Jianghuai Mandarin.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 11 October 2011 - 12:11 AM.