8 replies to this topic

[SlickSlicer]

Trying to learn more about the Duke of Zhou. First of all, I understand his name was Dan. Does that mean his name is Ji Dan since Ji is the surname of the Zhou house? Also aside from putting down the rebellions that took place when he came to power, what else did he achieve as a regent?

[Hooly]

SlickSlicer,

Yes, his name was Ji Dan ... son of Wen Wang, younger brother of Wu Wang and the Duke of Shao (whom he had a falling out with), uncle / Regent of

King Cheng (成王), the feudal rulers of the home state of Confucius, the State of Lu, were his descendants. He wrote the Rituals of Zhou, the Constitution of the Zhou Dynasty and the feudal order of ancient China, laying the basis of Chinese culture and the foundation for our civilization. He is what made China ... Chinese.

And, controversially, according to

Edward L. Shaughnessy, the Duke of Zhou, contrary to tradition, was briefly King (and not just Regent and Co-Chancellor) as well during the Regency of his nephew. It's heretical according to traditionalist thought I know, but Shaughnessy outlines it in his 'Before Confucius: ...' It's an interesting thesis, comparable to Revisionist theses regarding whether Jesus Christ existed, or whether the Prophet Muhammad exited, etc, etc.

Personally I like the traditional viewpoint ... namely that the Duke of Zhou is the greatest Chinese who ever existed.

[norenxaq]

people doubt Muhammed existed??????????

based on what?

[Hooly]

people doubt Muhammed existed??????????

based on what?

I know, it's politically incorrect to say so theses days, but read:

'Hagarism' by Patricia Crone and Michael Cook (a nearly impossible book to get)
'In the Shadow of the Sword' by Tom Holland (just released)

Crone and Cook postulate that the original religion was not called 'Islam' but rather 'Hagarism', it was only when the Near East was conquered from the Christians that the Muslims needed a new identity that was more distinct from the conquered population ... hence Islam and Muslim was invented. Muhammad was a Christian heretic initially, now he's become 'The Prophet'. ... In Chinese history, this would be analogous to the invention of the 'Manchu' nation, ... 'Jin' wasn't good enough anymore so a new identity had to be crafted with the establishment of the Qing Dynasty.

[f0ma]

I've just been reading Keay on the subject, who talks about how the Duke has been revered for stepping down in favour of King Cheng, i.e. not usurping the throne. However, Keay proposes that, instead of moving aside virtuously, the Duke could have been 'pushed' aside. He then rambles on a bit about the Heavenly Mandate - and it's all a bit too much for my poor brain at 3am - but does anyone think there's any truth to this? Was the Duke really as virtuous as he's generally thought to be? Or could he have been ousted from power?

[Hooly]

I've just been reading Keay on the subject, who talks about how the Duke has been revered for stepping down in favour of King Cheng, i.e. not usurping the throne. However, Keay proposes that, instead of moving aside virtuously, the Duke could have been 'pushed' aside. He then rambles on a bit about the Heavenly Mandate - and it's all a bit too much for my poor brain at 3am - but does anyone think there's any truth to this? Was the Duke really as virtuous as he's generally thought to be? Or could he have been ousted from power?

No one in history is as virtuous as revered texts make them out to be, including the Duke of Zhou (possible usurper), Jesus Christ (anti-family cultist), Julius Caesar (genocidal butcher), Dr. Martin Luther King (philanderer), etc, etc.

It's also not surprising in the case of King Cheng and the Duke of Zhou, a boy King in thrall to his uncles who helped found an entire dynasty, why should they bow down to a mere boy who won no battles and did not bleed for his people??

King Cheng was like Richard II of England or Jianwen Emperor of the Ming who was overthrown by the Duke of Yan his uncle, ... only difference is King Cheng managed to keep his thrown because his other uncles (notably the Duke of Shao) supported him.

The Duke of Zhou supported the idea that the Zhou were able to defeat and conquer the Shang because of ability, competence of leadership, wise counsel by advisers, good old fashioned hard work, and therefore the best and most able should rule i.e. himself obviously. Whereas that other school of though represented by the Duke of Shao believed that the Zhou were not powerful enough to overthrow the Shang, and that the only explanation is that the Zhou were divinely chosen by Heaven, receiving Heaven's Grace and Mandate to rule 'All Under Heaven'. This argument can roughly be compared to the Catholic / Protestant divide on 'Works' and 'Faith'. Can you perform good deeds to go to heaven, or is it down to faith alone? and in the case of the Calvinists, 'pre-destination' where no matter what you do, if you're not 'pre-destined' to go to heaven, then you can't. Fortunately for Chinese civilization, the viewpoint of the Duke of Zhou, through Confucius, won out in the end. That's why China never developed a Caste System like India, never had religious wars like the Abrahamic traditions.

Edited by Hooly, 30 May 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[f0ma]

King Cheng was like Richard II of England or Jianwen Emperor of the Ming who was overthrown by the Duke of Yan his uncle, ... only difference is King Cheng managed to keep his thrown because his other uncles (notably the Duke of Shao) supported him.

The Duke of Zhou supported the idea that the Zhou were able to defeat and conquer the Shang because of ability, competence of leadership, wise counsel by advisers, good old fashioned hard work, and therefore the best and most able should rule i.e. himself obviously. Whereas that other school of though represented by the Duke of Shao believed that the Zhou were not powerful enough to overthrow the Shang, and that the only explanation is that the Zhou were divinely chosen by Heaven, receiving Heaven's Grace and Mandate to rule 'All Under Heaven'.

Ah I understand the Mandate argument now, thank you so the Duke of Zhou was deterred from usurping the throne by the Duke of Shao?

[Hooly]

Ah I understand the Mandate argument now, thank you so the Duke of Zhou was deterred from usurping the throne by the Duke of Shao?

That's my guess (who knows really, it's a long time ago). But a pious Confucian would see it in traditional terms, with the Duke of Zhou a loyal servant of the dynasty.

I'm more of a realist myself, and yeah, the Duke of Shao along with other lords probably prevented the Duke of Zhou attempted coup and usurpation. You can do that in a feudal system like the Zhou Dynasty, with multiple power groups amongst the lords (sort of like the early days of the Manchu Qing dynasty). The Duke of Zhou held the title Grand Preceptor (太師) while the Duke of Shao held the title Grand Guardian (太保) ... Left and Right Chancellors essentially, a balance of powers.

The Duke of Shao out lived his nephew King Cheng into the reign of his grand-nephew King Kang, who's prestige was such that the Duke of Shao probably was the true ruler of the Dynasty due to age and fanatical loyalty to the Dynasty.

[Bao Pu]

Ji Dan not only quelled rebellions, but also expanded the Zhou territory quite a bit. He was thus also a conqueror.