18 replies to this topic

[truehistorian]

I've found a map of China release in 1904.

[truehistorian]

In 1904, China territory has not included Tibet, Paracel and Spratly Islands,...

[zangheinin]

Nice, love ancient artifacts! This probably was the Qing dynasty's view of China.

[cantonia's dim sum fak choy]

In 1904, China territory has not included Tibet, Paracel and Spratly Islands,...

Thats the manchu view. I hope you're not vietnamese. Vietnamese people ask china to give up swaths of southern china with no good reason other than a moan complaint 2200 years prior. Viets ask too much from china hear. Guangdong belongs to china and they can't do anything about it. Guangxi belongs to China. Fujian belongs to China. If vietnamese want it independent, they have to invade china by force.

[truehistorian]

Thats the manchu view. I hope you're not vietnamese. Vietnamese people ask china to give up swaths of southern china with no good reason other than a moan complaint 2200 years prior. Viets ask too much from china hear. Guangdong belongs to china and they can't do anything about it. Guangxi belongs to China. Fujian belongs to China. If vietnamese want it independent, they have to invade china by force.

Then why has china complained about japan in WW2 for Nanjing? You don't have any logic to debate, if using foce china also lost to mongol, manchu and japan. Firstly china had used historical evidence to prove that the Paracel and Spratly islands belong to her, then now when it turned out to be fake, china changes tactics to spam and force. China may get some tiny islands, but the human being lost the belief.

Edited by truehistorian, 29 July 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[homeless]

Can you read the caption of this map?



Or you can download here

[Danny.T]

This map was a reprint in 1904 with some amendments . The map was based on the surveys by a couple of Jesuits worked in the Qing Court during Kangxi period on the Qing direct rule regions and provinces. The caption also says parts of Manchuria and Mongolia were included. So the map was not a complete map of Qing dynasty.The major concern was the names of the major cities , rivers , mountains and coastal ports.With advanced western cartography the Chinese landscape could be presented in a more accurate proportional way.
In the lower right you can see a faint boundary of the Qing Empire as a whole in a much smaller map and in the lower right you can also see the whole Manchuria in the North East in a smaller map too.

Paracel and Spratly Islands are said to be included in other famous maps of the Qing dynasty.

Edited by Danny.T, 02 August 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[homeless]

This map was a reprint in 1904 with some amendments . The map was based on the surveys by a couple of Jesuits worked in the Qing Court during Kangxi period on the Qing direct rule regions and provinces. The caption also says parts of Manchuria and Mongolia were included. So the map was not a complete map of Qing dynasty.The major concern was the names of the major cities , rivers , mountains and coastal ports.With advanced western cartography the Chinese landscape could be presented in a more accurate proportional way.
In the lower right you can see a faint boundary of the Qing Empire as a whole in a much smaller map and in the lower right you can also see the whole Manchuria in the North East in a smaller map too.

Paracel and Spratly Islands are said to be included in other famous maps of the Qing dynasty.

What map do you mean? Show it please!

Are these map? Or these ?

Edited by homeless, 02 August 2012 - 11:23 PM.

[Danny.T]

What map do you mean? Show it please!
The following Qing maps are said to have include the Paracel and Spratly Islands. I have not seen these maps personally so cannot verify the correctness. Anyway these are Chinese maps and I don't have the exact English translation on the map titles. So I only give the Chinese (*traditional) names here.

1724 "清直省分圖" 之"天下總輿圖"
1755 "皇清各直省分圖" 之 "天下總輿圖"
1767 "大清萬年一統天下全圖"
1810 "大清萬年一統地量全圖"
1817 "大清一統天下全圖"
1712-1721 Kangxi period "柬洋南洋海道圖"
1730 "四海總圖" from "海國圖志"
1844 " 東洋南洋各國沿革圖" from "海國圖志"

The above maps seem to be official imperial maps.

From Ming dynasty , the Chinese navigator Cheng He
1405-1421 "鄭和航海圖誌"

Edited by Danny.T, 03 August 2012 - 02:24 AM.

[truehistorian]

What map do you mean? Show it please!
The following Qing maps are said to have include the Paracel and Spratly Islands. I have not seen these maps personally so cannot verify the correctness. Anyway these are Chinese maps and I don't have the exact English translation on the map titles. So I only give the Chinese (*traditional) names here.

1724 "清直省分圖" 之"天下總輿圖"
1755 "皇清各直省分圖" 之 "天下總輿圖"
1767 "大清萬年一統天下全圖"
1810 "大清萬年一統地量全圖"
1817 "大清一統天下全圖"
1712-1721 Kangxi period "柬洋南洋海道圖"
1730 "四海總圖" from "海國圖志"
1844 " 東洋南洋各國沿革圖" from "海國圖志"

The above maps seem to be official imperial maps.

From Ming dynasty , the Chinese navigator Cheng He
1405-1421 "鄭和航海圖誌"

This is Vietnamese map in 1838,

and some record in 1776,


Can you just post 1 map? No need to list all these titles without any real image! I don't think china had any official map that include Spratly and Paracel islands before 1909.

[Danny.T]

Can you just post 1 map?


No I can't . I don't have these maps which would be in China's national archives or in Chinese University libraries.

Anyway the book and map I mentioned of 1730 are famous on details of the South Sea and the most easy to retrieve.
Also here is an essay "Nanhai, a Chinese territory boundary as surveyed by the - Four Sea Sun Shadow Lengths Survey - of the Yuan Dynasty Period" by Prof. Han Zheng Hua of Xiamen University translated by Bobsin Wang , Chinese University of Hong Kong.
The article is to clarify Yuan China's territory boundary including the South Sea limits almost 800 years ago.
Here is the pdf copy of the article

http://www.gavinmenz...fulltextpdf.pdf

[truehistorian]

Can you just post 1 map?


No I can't . I don't have these maps which would be in China's national archives or in Chinese University libraries.

Anyway the book and map I mentioned of 1730 are famous on details of the South Sea and the most easy to retrieve.
Also here is an essay "Nanhai, a Chinese territory boundary as surveyed by the - Four Sea Sun Shadow Lengths Survey - of the Yuan Dynasty Period" by Prof. Han Zheng Hua of Xiamen University translated by Bobsin Wang , Chinese University of Hong Kong.
The article is to clarify Yuan China's territory boundary including the South Sea limits almost 800 years ago.
Here is the pdf copy of the article

http://www.gavinmenz...fulltextpdf.pdf

If you don't have a map to show, your logic has no support. Why we can show you Chinese official map but you cannot? Just because there is no such kind of map that you mentioned.
Btw, Yuan is mongolian dynasty, not chinese! Base on your logic, Vietnam can claim Hainan because it's belong to Ming Dynasty!
No mater how China tell lie, the right is not on your side in Paracel and Spratly islands dispute!

[Honam]

*yawns @ Google search* The 1844 Map that is supposed to include those islands: http://www.picturech...php?tid=155107.

[truehistorian]

*yawns @ Google search* The 1844 Map that is supposed to include those islands: http://www.picturech...php?tid=155107.

1. This is not China map, it's the map of southern sea (of China).
2. The name "Wan li chang sha" is original vietnamese name (Truong Sa mean Chang Sha) for Spratly islands , not chinese name (xisha).
3. There is no evidence that those islands were belonged to china, or you want Java is also belong to china )

Your map support what I have stated, China has stolen Paracel and Spratly islands from Vietnam, and now is Senkaku of Japan. You are just liars!

[Shiang]

I've found a map of China release in 1904.

That map only contains images of provinces of china, provinces are merely an administrative unit, like a state in america.

http://www.china-exp...ry_Emp_Qing.htm

In america, alaska and hawaii and most of the western usa were ruled as territories, not states until recently. Tibet, xinjiang, mongolia and manchuria were ruled similarly to these territories.

http://www.historygu...ml#.UHzHyWt5mSM

Japan surrendered the spratlys and parafels islands to the republic of china after world war 2, both politically and militarily.

Vietnam also acknowledge the spratly and paracel islands to be part of china since the song dynasty during the vietnam war


http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false