68 replies to this topic

[AhMan]

in this aspect I think there is already something in common between the Wu Yue and the Vietnamese. Do you know about One Pillar Pagoda in Vietnam? There's a joke that Japanese thought it would be a great achievement to be able to build a pagoda on just one pillar. Guess how they felt when they found out that it was just a small room standing on the pillar. The room is big enough for just one person to sit in. This feature is quite common in Vietnam. The buildings were built for symbolic reasons, not for glory or impression. This is unique in Chinese culture sphere.
The point I want to make is that probably before the conquer of Han there might be already a culture existed in Vietnam. This culture, although as not glorious as Han's was strong enough to resist complete sinicization. The GuangDong area was inhabited by small tribes that never founded a true culture therefore they were quickly sinicized.

[heyniceboard]

What's wrong with "feminine" male characters? To ordinary Chinese living in Wu-yue region, they prefer a smart cute scholar to a macho muscular fighter. I guess we are too far ahead in human development. lol. They value education more than any othe parts of China, they produce most scholars and scientiests since Ming Dynasty. Even today after the marginalization by the government, Zhejiang (43 million), Southern Jiangsu (30 million?) and Shanghai (20 million?) produce more than half of the members of Chinese Academy of Science and Academy of Engineers (probably about 80%, not sure need confirmation).  If Wu-yue region had its own little country, it would be very rich and culturally developed.
I guess Wu-yue region very much resemles Southern Song. I hope we as a people will not be wiped out like Southern Song by Mongols.

Peking University, Tsinghua University are 3/4 filled with faculty from Jiangnan. Since 1950, the 3 provinces/muncipalities with the highest taxes are Shanghai, Jiangsu and Zhejiang (with number four paying 100 fold less). The problem is that they also got the lowest per capita investment from the central government in all of China. Shanghai in 1991 looked pretty much the same as in 1949, except more run-down, populated and polluted. This was not because of incompetence by the local government officials, Shanghai revenue per capita has been the highest in all of China for more than a century. Instead what was going on was Beijing not feeding its only milk cow (or more accurately, Beijing not allowing the milk cow to feed itself), all the revenue went to the national coffers. It wasn't until 1992 (after Deng gave permission) that Shanghai was allowed to keep a miniscule fraction of its revenues ABOVE a set quota that automatically went to Beijing. The amount of its own revenue that it was able to keep in 1992 for the first time was still not enough to build one kilometer of subway, but it was better than nothing (note that by 1992, Beijing and even North Korea Pyeongyang had subways). Maybe all this is why many Shanghainese people dislike communism with seething resentment and have strong independent tendencies. The Communist Revolution did nothing for Shanghai except sterilizing the nightlife and making Shanghai the bourgeois boogeyman scapegoat. All of the food and resources that Shanghai relied upon came from Jiangnan, and nowhere else.

We are in 2005 today, and Shanghai has transformed quite a bit since 1992, it is no coincidence that Shanghai's rapid development coincided with the Chinese economic development overall in the last decade. The strategic location of Shanghai on the Yangtze allowed for it to penetrate interior markets, and its surrounding cities in Jiangnan created an instant industrial network. The economic development that was going on in Shenzhen and the Far South during the 1980's was too regional, trickling too slowly and based too much on unskilled assembly labor, making little impact elsewhere in China. Shanghai and Jiangnan was able to prevent China from becoming the Next Mexico by means of its large skilled workforce, excellent organization, contract culture (no-nonsense, rule of law), low corruption and pro-Western attitude.

Jiangnan culture respects education and professionalism. Its defining trait is its tolerance and willingness to learn from others. It is not blind by nationalism and collective egos. Nationalism and ego does not respect and dignity make. Lu Xun was a Jiangnan-man, most Chinese have interpreted his writings wrong. Blind nationalism, Boxer Rebellions, unjustified egos are actually all actions akin to AH-Q. It is stupidity and ignorance. Lu Xun was not calling for false revolution and imaginary dignity, it has to be real. Dignity comes from achieving something worthwhile. Pissing on the Americans or Japanese when we have so much to learn from them is not an achievement, it is AH-Q.

[Yun]

What I usually associate with Wu Yue males is that they are completely dominated by their wives.

One thing I learnt when I was in Shanghai is that Shanghainese men tend to make great cooks, and Shanghainese women don't do much cooking because they leave it to their husbands. It seems that Wu-Yue men are the least male chauvinistic men in China?

[snowybeagle]

I think the males in the ethnic groups of China which remained matriarchal are the least chauvinistic males in China, outside the ethnic-Han groups that is.

My reasoning : It is harder to be chauvinistic when it is the females who work for a living.

[nishishei]

My reasoning : It is harder to be chauvinistic when it is the females who work for a living.

Inside a typical office tower in Shanghai, most of the non-secretarial and non-custodian jobs are all held by men. Positions of power are heavily skewed towards men in Shanghai.

Shanghainese men's taking care of some household chores and cooking doesn't mean society in general is any less patriarchal or sexist. It's just that inside the house, there is a rather equal distribution of responsibility. This is due to the culture of pampering females in the Wu-Yue region. So in general Shanghainese men are still macho, they just don't beat their wives. The curse of lowered expectations though is very much present for women.

[sahaliyan]

What I usually associate with Wu Yue males is that they are completely dominated by their wives.

My Wu dad is pretty pwned by my Lu (Shandong) mom.

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

in this aspect I think there is already something in common between the Wu Yue and the Vietnamese. Do you know about One Pillar Pagoda in Vietnam? There's a joke that Japanese thought it would be a great achievement to be able to build a pagoda on just one pillar. Guess how they felt when they found out that it was just a small room standing on the pillar. The room is big enough for just one person to sit in. This feature is quite common in Vietnam. The buildings were built for symbolic reasons, not for glory or impression. This is unique in Chinese culture sphere.
The point I want to make is that probably before the conquer of Han there might be already a culture existed in Vietnam. This culture, although as not glorious as Han's was strong enough to resist complete sinicization. The GuangDong area was inhabited by small tribes that never founded a true culture therefore they were quickly sinicized.

Stop insulting the Yue culture in GuangDong area. They were not small tribes but they were more influence after the incoming of Zhao Tuo

[AhMan]

hey, nguoivietchanhtong, are you Vietnamese or are you Chinese? First i did not think my post has anything that may insult Yue in GuangDong. Historical sources showed that while the population in North Vietnam was about 1 million in Eastern Han population census (probably not include those who were outside Han administration) while the population of GuangDong and GuangXi did not exceed 300,000. What does it mean? It means that North Vietnam was densely populated and could be the centre of Yue in North Vietnam and GuangDong GuangXi while Yue in GuangDong GuangXi existed in small tribes instead of forming a kind of centralized gonvernment like North Vietnam. In 3 kingdom era the population of North Vietnam remained the same while the population of GuangDong almost 2,5 time more. This can be inferred that Han moved into GuangDong and increased the population there while there was little or no significant Han movement into North Vietnam. This happened in Changsha, WuYue areas as well and the pattern went on for many centuries. I doubted there was massive Han migration to Vietnam. NanLing was already a major obstacle, weather condition was another. Between LingNan and North Vietnam there are many high mountains and hills and virtually no road so this hindered further Han movement to this area. Many Vietnamese historians agreed that in fact sinicization of Vietnam could be from Vietnamese elites recently. 1000 years of colonisation had little impact to common Vietnamese. I think Viet mixed more with Tai and Khmer in this period than it mixed with Han Chinese. That may explain why they share linguistic features with Tai and Khmer. Actually sinicization of Vietnam did not become systematic and intense until the Nguyens came to power in 18th century. They copied Qing law code, Confucius examination system, costumes, food, court system etc.
Think about WuYue area. They were so close to Han Chinese yet how sinicized are they now compared to other Chinese? If you are a Viet then you have insulted your ancestors by denying they had their own people and civilization. If you are Chinese then I don't see any reason why you call my post insulting Yue in GuangDong (unless you are in the same gang with like2learn).

[Yun]

If you are Chinese then I don't see any reason why you call my post insulting Yue in GuangDong (unless you are in the same gang with like2learn).

He IS of the same ideology as Like2learn, that is why he's claiming that the Yue had a unified nation stretching all the way from Zhejiang to Guangzhou to north Vietnam. And he thus resents your suggestion that they weren't so unified.

[foldup_gryphon]

I agree with most of Yun's post.  However, I do indeed associate Northern Chinese with dragons, red, yellow and the Yellow River, Yellow Earth.  Which is why I found this topic kind of interesting in a way.  The Yangtze River flows right by Shanghai; we until this century really had no identification with the Yellow River/Earth.  It was part of Northern China's identity, something that didn't carry down to Jiangnan. Red is indeed the color of Jiangbei and Northern China.  It has always been used everywhere in the north and is now considered the color that defines the Chinese ethnicity. I think I understand walnut's selection choices; they are what foreigners perceive of China, they are the initial common cultural snapshots that foreigners have when they learn about China.  In that perspective, indeed China seems to be defined by the culture in the north and far south (Guangdong and Fujian), with little to no representation of Jiangnan. The quiet Venice-like canalways 水乡 of Jiangnan is utterly forgotten or ignored, even by most Chinese.  The tendency to categorize Northern and Southern Chinas have indeed succeeded in eliminating Jiangnan from China in most people's minds.  Even from the posts here, with plenty of representation from the Jiangnan area, I feel that when Northern Chinese speak of South China, they mean Guangdong and Fujian; and when Southern Chinese speak of North China, they mean either the Central Plains or Hebei/Shandong and Manchuria.
Hehe, some photos of Suzhou-Wuxi-Shanghai area

The traditional plain minimalist oriental architectural style presented above with buildings of broad white wash walls with black pillars, black beams, and black roof tiles are not unique to the Yang Tze Delta and the Japanese islands nation. Traditional Hakka houses whether round or square have the same artistic ornamentations i.e. the same broad white wash walls with black pillars and beams, and black roof tiling. Could there be a Hakka Yue-Wu relation? I know it is widely academically researched and taught that Henen is the origin of the Hakkas. But now architecturally speaking I am not so sure.


Additionally the survey done showing the Yang Tze Delta populace identified with the culture dragon but not the culture dragon dance. If that is the case can I interpret that the Yang Tze Delta culture do not have dragon dance but instead they do have dragon boat races and at the same time they also eat ‘gnau tsoong’ i.e. triangular or rectangular stuffing of various spices and meat ham wrapped in savory glutinous rice all tied over tightly with green broad leaves and strings? Further is there a culture differentiation between North of the Yang Tze and South of the Yang Tze?

[bloodmerchant]

d****, I'd hate to necropost, but this deserves to be bumped in my opinion.

For most people in Jiangnan, incl. my parents, even though we see ourselves as southern Han Chinese, we never claim that we're the true han chinese or that we're descended from people from northern china, even though we have both typical northern and southern Han features. We just see ourselves as Jiangnan/Wuyue people, who lived here for god knows how long. We're our own subgroup of Han Chinese.

I have to admit, my mother does boss around my father a lot. My mother even told me: "Someday I hope your wife keeps you under her leash", or something like that. When I asked her what was her reasoning, she told me: "Men do a lot of stupid things. If women didn't keep them in check, <something bad happens>." So we're not effeminate or 'gay', it's just that we see that men and women are both equal and compliment each other in many ways. So Wuyue men are still masculine, they're just not as misogynistic as other chinese.

So I would consider 'native' Shanghainese (not 'New Shanghainese') to be a more urbanized, Westernized, and cosmopolitan subgroup of Wuyue people.

So one could suggest that Wuyue people are a distinct ethnic group within a larger ethnic group (Han Chinese). They all speak similar dialects of the same Wu Chinese, they all share common behavioral traits (emphasis on education, innovation, etc.), similar cuisine, cultural traits (music, architecture, aesthetics, etc.), religious influences/trends, common history, as well as being largely confined to the same region for centuries, if not millennia.

I could update this if I'd like to...

[General_Zhaoyun]

I wonder why so many Chinese say "Shanghainese guys are afraid of their wives"...and why so many Chinese say "the last thing you want to do is to marry a Shanghainese wife". But many girls will say they will marry Shanghainese guys because they are the best.

Certainly, Jiangnan culture has shaped the Wu-Yue culture.

[mohistManiac]

I thought Shanghainese/Wuyue-ren being typically located along the coastal provinces would consider themselves in league with other richer non-agrarian types people in China like Beijing-ren and Guangdong-ren. I didn't know that there would be a co-issue of not being "true Han." To meet my own point I guess the question that needs to be asked is do farmer types of people along the Yangtze river consider themselves to be not "true Han"?