74 replies to this topic

[qrasy]

Back to the topic, I want to correct the above: this writing is seen on some bronze drums, but on those, besides the bird script, there is also pictographs. The bird script was found on "qua" (the element on the left of the word Yue that are most used for Yue Nan 越) as well.

qua= 戈 (Mandarin ge1). (Mandarin yue4) 戉=鉞=> read "Việt" in Sino-Vietnamese, means some kind of axe.

I do not have a scanner hooked up, but this writing is on page 276 of the Vietnamese language book titled Ti`m Ve^` Nguo^`n Go^'c Va(n Minh Vie^.t Nam Du+o+'i A'nh Sa'ng Mo+'i cu?a Khoa Ho.c (Searching for the Origin of Vietnamese Civilization under New Lights by Science) by Cung DDi`nh Thanh.
The script that has similar character found by the Japanese researcher is on page 277 of that book.
The Shui also has a script that has characters similar to those of Pre-Hsia script ones, in addition to other pictographs. The Shui are believed to be descendants of Luo Yue. I have not seen this script.

Hm... Could that be the Chiyou's scripture?

In Wucheng site in Jiangsu, a Shang period site, there is a script wit characters similar to the ones found on Shang oracle bones and others that appears to be unique. I have not seen it either. I guess is they could be related, as they are all Bai Yue scripts.

Similar to the ones found on Shang oracle bones? Isn't Shang oracle writing ancestor of modern Chinese writing?

The Xianbeis, Wuhuan, Di, Jie, Qiang, Dong Hus once all had distinctive cultures that now more or less vanished after they've assimilated with Huaxia culture or dispersed into the wind.

The same must likely have happened to the old culture of North Vietnam after a thousand year intercoursing with its large, suppressive northern overlord.
The rice growing culture of the Red river delta. Are we still on the same page?

<off topic>
I believe Xianbeis, Wuhuan, Di, Jie, Qiang, Dong Hus all have descendants now.
Xianbei became Xibo (Sibe) tribe, Di+Jie+Qiang become Tibetan, Qiang tribe etc. (in fact Qiang-zu is a modern China "nationality"), Dong Hu became various northeastern China ethnics including Manchu. However I doubt anything left of Wuhuan, perhaps they just join the Turks?

Edited by qrasy, 28 November 2005 - 04:31 AM.

[Nguyen-Trong Cam]

Hm... Could that be the Chiyou's scripture?
Similar to the ones found on Shang oracle bones? Isn't Shang oracle writing ancestor of modern Chinese writing?

Chiyou's scripture? You made that up, right? But I see your point. Very possible. One way to find out would be looking at discovered writing systems, however nascent, in Hebei, ShanDong, Korea, ancient Chu territory where the descendants of San Miao fled to, maybe even Zhe Jiang, where the Dong Yi migrated to.
The Shang oracle bone characters are Chinese, I think.

[qrasy]

I remembered that I posted about ancient writing system somewhere long ago... Where said the ancestor of Chinese(?) writing was from some Liangzhu(?) people, related to Chiyou. (... okay, I could have thought of wrong thing)

[Kulong]

I remembered that I posted about ancient writing system somewhere long ago... Where said the ancestor of Chinese(?) writing was from some Liangzhu(?) people, related to Chiyou. (... okay, I could have thought of wrong thing)

Bah, I've heard numerous so-called "theories" on who invented Chinese characters, anywhere from Chiyou, Hmong/Miao, Vietnamese, Koreans to Jews and Africans...

[qrasy]

Not exactly French, but Portuguese missionary... (forgot the name)
The clearest thing is the usage of nh to refer to ñ, 'ny' as in 'canyon'.
You know names like "Ronaldinho", etc?

And there's no F J W and Z in Vietnamese writing...

[MC420]

Not exactly French, but Portuguese missionary... (forgot the name)
The clearest thing is the usage of nh to refer to ñ, 'ny' as in 'canyon'.
You know names like "Ronaldinho", etc?

And there's no F J W and Z in Vietnamese writing...

You got your history mixed up. The pioneer of romanticizing writing vietnamese was Alexandre De Rhodes, a Portugese Jesuit, who invented the system to make his missionary works easier. Over the years, people tweaked and perfected that system. Due to this Latin connection, Viet spelling is pretty much the same as Latin.

Alexandre De Rhodes created the romanized version of Vietnamese writing system since 1627 mainly to translate the Bible for his missionary work; however, this romanize Vietnamese (Chữ Quốc Ngữ) didn't become popular and being used in the maintream Vietnamese until the early part of the 20th century when a group of new Vietnamese writers (Tự Lực Văn Đoàn) from North Vietnam started to popular their novels by using Chữ Quốc Ngữ!

[MC420]

I knew,it was the French invented the latinized Vietnamese written language.

Pls read carefully the post before hastily making your comments. Alexandre De Rhodes <-- was a Portuguese Jesuit Priest, who came to Vietnam in the early part of the 17th century; which was couple centuries prior to the colonization of the French took place in Vietnam in the later parth of the 19th century!

Edited by MC420, 07 March 2006 - 12:54 AM.

[esse]

Pls read carefully the post before hastily making your comments. Alexandre De Rhodes <-- was a Portuguese Jesuit Priest, who came to Vietnam in the early part of the 17th century; which was couple centuries prior to the colonization of the French took place in Vietnam in the later parth of the 19th century!

You know, on a second thought, who can tell for sure what his ethnic was? We only know he was a Jesuit, and since most Jesuits at the time who were active in the Far East were Portugese, hence perhaps the presumption. For all concerned, he could have been Greek, or Italian/French/Spanish/Portugese born on the Greek island of Rhodes. And he came to Vietnam back in the 16th century.

[MC420]

You know, on a second thought, who can tell for sure what his ethnic was? We only know he was a Jesuit, and since most Jesuits at the time who were active in the Far East were Portugese, hence perhaps the presumption. For all concerned, he could have been Greek, or Italian/French/Spanish/Portugese born on the Greek island of Rhodes. And he came to Vietnam back in the 16th century.

Alexandre De Rhodes

A missionary and author, born at Avignon, 15 March, 1591; died at Ispahan, Persia, 5 Nov., 1660. He entered the novitiate of the Society of Jesus at Rome, 24 April, 1612, with the intention of devoting his life to the conversion of the infidels. He was assigned to the missions of the East Indies, and inaugurated his missionary labours in 1624 with great success in Cochin China. In 1627 he proceeded to Tongking where, within the space of three years, he converted 6000 persons, including several bonzes. When in 1630 persecution forced him to leave the country, the newly-made converts continued the work of evangelization. Rhodes was later recalled to Rome where he obtained permission from his superiors to undertake missionary work in Persia. Amidst the numerous activities of a missionary career, he found time for literary productions: "Tunchinensis historiæ libri duo" (Lyons, 1652); "La glorieuse mort d'André, Catéchiste . . ." (Paris, 1653); "Catechismus", published in Latin and in Tongkingese at Rome in 1658.

Avignon, from the fifteenth century onward it became the policy of the Kings of France to unite Avignon to their kingdom. In 1476, Louis XI, annoyed that Giuliano della Rovere should have been made legate, rather than Charles of Bourbon, caused the city to be occupied, and did not withdraw his troops until after his favourite had been made a cardinal. In 1536 Francis I invaded the papal territory, in order to drive out Charles V, who held Provence. In return for the reception accorded him by the people of Avignon, Francis granted them the same privileges as those enjoyed by the French, that, especially, of being eligible to offices of state. Henry III made a fruitless attempt to exchange the Marquisate of Saluces for Avignon, but Gregory XIII would not agree to it (1583). In 1663, Louis XIV, in consequence of an attack, led by the Corsican Guard, on the attendants of the Duc de Créqui, his ambassador in Rome, seized Avignon, which was declared an integral part of the Kingdom of France by the Parliament of Provence.

Technically speaking Fr. Alexandre Du Rhodes could be considered as a Frenchman; however, most Vietnamese records do refer him as a Portugese priest!

[qrasy]

Well, his writing style of "nh" instead of "gn" or "nj" seem to point to Portuguese Origin

[TrueViet]

Alexandre De Rhodes created the romanized version of Vietnamese writing system since 1627 mainly to translate the Bible for his missionary work; however, this romanize Vietnamese (Chữ Quốc Ngữ) didn't become popular and being used in the maintream Vietnamese until the early part of the 20th century when a group of new Vietnamese writers (Tự Lực Văn Đoàn) from North Vietnam started to popular their novels by using Chữ Quốc Ngữ!

It is not so.

"Tự Lực Văn Đoàn" was formed when "Chữ Quốc Ngữ" was already popular.
At time of "Tự Lực Văn Đoàn" most of people in my hometown can write in "Chữ Quốc Ngữ."
All Vietnam classic works were also in "Chữ Quốc Ngữ" rather than in HanViet or Nom.
There were newspapers in "Chữ Quốc Ngữ" that had not been in Vietnam culture.
The French government banned (about 1906) the Classic Examination which was in Chinese JiuWen.
"Tự Lực Văn Đoàn" is said to be heavily influenced by French culture,
together with other writers priors to this time.
The Vietnamese considered "Tự Lực Văn Đoàn" as kids of new wave (French influence) at that time.

We may notice that the time from 1627 to 1900 is not a short period to a writing to be extinct or popular.

[qrasy]

"Tự Lực Văn Đoàn" was formed when "Chữ Quốc Ngữ" was already popular.
At time of "Tự Lực Văn Đoàn" most of people in my hometown can write in "Chữ Quốc Ngữ."

When was the (approximate) time when Chữ Quốc Ngữ became popular?
And does "Tự Lực Văn Đoàn" mean "self-powered literature organization"?

All Vietnam classic works were also in "Chữ Quốc Ngữ" rather than in HanViet or Nom.

are you sure? What classics? Poems?

[MC420]

It is not so.

"Tự Lực Văn Đoàn" was formed when "Chữ Quốc Ngữ" was already popular.
At time of "Tự Lực Văn Đoàn" most of people in my hometown can write in "Chữ Quốc Ngữ."
All Vietnam classic works were also in "Chữ Quốc Ngữ" rather than in HanViet or Nom.

TrueViet:

Pls substantiate your assertion a bit more details. Even though Chữ Quốc Ngữ has been used in Vietnam for 3 centuries or so; however, the first Vietnamese Newspaper in Chữ Quốc Ngữ (Đông dương Tạp chí) published initially in the year of 1913. The French gov't wouldn't allow Chữ Quốc Ngữ to be taught in Primary School only since 1924; soon afterward, the Tự Lực Văn Đoàn group formed after Cách mạng Yên Bái in 1930 and disbanded in 1945.

With your assertion 'At time of "Tự Lực Văn Đoàn" most of people in my hometown can write in "Chữ Quốc Ngữ."'; If you came from Ha Noi or few other major cities in Vietnam like Hai Phong, Hue, Sai Gon, Can Tho, etc. then it would be feasible since Chữ Quốc Ngữ was already being taught in primary schools accross the country; however, it would take a little while longer for it to be become popular and Tự Lực Văn Đoàn group, certain did help to popular and accelerate the usage of Chữ Quốc Ngữ since 1930 though!

[phoenix_bladen]

is there any way that the government may plan to revive Chu Nom ?

Since it seems that most of it's population may not be able to read their own history

[esse]

is there any way that the government may plan to revive Chu Nom ?

Since it seems that most of it's population may not be able to read their own history

There is such a thing called translation. Check it out. Just like not every Chinese understand the old style prose of 24 histories and they needed to be translated to modern mandarin for mass consumption.

Practically you need no more than a few dozen experts. Computing technology however allowed the expansion of the ranks of amateurs and semi-experts quite rapidly.