162 replies to this topic

[chan4059]

I am wondering I been watching Dae Jang Guem (大長今) and I have been noticing that some korean words sound like cantonese; therefore, I want to know if Korean was a Chinese dialect or some sort...

[hansioux]

I am wondering I been watching Dae Jang Guem (大長今) and I have been noticing that some korean words sound like cantonese; therefore, I want to know if Korean was a Chinese dialect or some sort...

 

It simply mean Corean barrowed some Han vocabs when the official language in Centeria was still more similar to traditional Han pronounciations.

[chan4059]

It simply mean Corean barrowed some Han vocabs when the official language in Centeria was still more similar to traditional Han pronounciations.

 

When did this happened? I mean if what you said is true, how many percent of the korean vocabs are Han pronounciation?

[Gubook Janggoon]

When did this happened? I mean if what you said is true, how many percent of the korean vocabs are Han pronounciation?

 

Around a good 50%

[chan4059]

Around a good 50%

 

So their language can be considered the language that was spoken by the Hans.

[Gubook Janggoon]

So their language can be considered the language that was spoken by the Hans.

 

Um..no

If you're trying to make a linguistic connection between Chinese and Korean it's strictly limited to loan words. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Liang Jieming]

The same can be said about Japanese or Vietnamese. Many words are very similar to Cantonese. eg. Japanese "Kantan" = Cantonese for easy or "Kantan"

[Yun]

GJ, any new views on the Chinese record saying that Chin-Han spoke the Qin dialect? Does it suggest that the early Korean kingdoms were influenced by a very ancient form of Chinese, even before the Middle Chinese of the Age of Fragmentation, Sui and Tang?

[chan4059]

Hmm... I am wondering if Koreans have the same genetic make up as we chinese people? ALso I want to know how could I tell if I am mixed with the Hans, because I am Cantonese, is there a specific feature that you look at to see how full blooded Han you are..?

[tianzhuwoye]

GJ, any new views on the Chinese record saying that Chin-Han spoke the Qin dialect? Does it suggest that the early Korean kingdoms were influenced by a very ancient form of Chinese, even before the Middle Chinese of the Age of Fragmentation, Sui and Tang?

More groundless theorizing: are there records showing that the Warring States were all speaking the same language? Or even indications that 'the people' under especially these early empires were all talking the same language as the individuals recording the history of the rulers (in writing)? I seem to remember that the Qin-Jinhan language argument involved advancing some pretty weird-looking Qin vocabulary and I wonder about the possibility of the situation which we assume to have applied to the future Koreas and Japans and so many other states of the periphery areas- where they're writing in one language and speaking something totally different- being applicable 'closer to home' if we bring it back far enough? Any shot that the Qin's role in the formation of 'China' may be a little overexaggerated by now? They didn't last and were replaced by the Han state which, coincidence or convenience or not, gives us the name of the language written and spoken today.

A simple 'yes, these records exist' and I'll shut up.

Actually, know what, these might have been loan words too. I think you guys were addressing something similiar on the legends of Kija thread?

[MengTzu]

So their language can be considered the language that was spoken by the Hans.

 

English borrowed A LOT of French words, probably over 50 percent. But no one would say that English speaks French

[MengTzu]

GJ, any new views on the Chinese record saying that Chin-Han spoke the Qin dialect? Does it suggest that the early Korean kingdoms were influenced by a very ancient form of Chinese, even before the Middle Chinese of the Age of Fragmentation, Sui and Tang?

 

I have wondered about this -- I've heard that the "f" sound is nonexistent in Han dynasty Chinese, and voila, the sound is also absent in modern Korean. I'm guessing the Koreans actually kept this feature that is lost among the Chinese Am I way off or do I get a cigar Note: I'm in no way claiming that Koreans originally spoke Chinese. At least the present form of Korean did not originate out of a Chinese dialect -- the syntax is just way, way different. The similarities come from the loan words.

[Yun]

Yes, the Chin-Han issue that fascinated GJ was first brought up by me on the Kija thread, and I mentioned it again in more detail on the "where did the name Silla come from " thread. This is what I wrote:

the Sanguo Zhi and the Jin Shu both mention that Chinhan originated as a refuge given by the Mahan 马韩 to refugees from Qin. Hence they were also known as the Qinhan 秦韩. They referred to the people of Lelang 乐浪 prefecture as A'can 阿残, meaning 'our (a) remnants (can)'. They also used a different language, with terms that were native to the Qin region, rather than the northeast or even Yan and Zhao. For example, 邦 instead of 国, 寇 instead of 贼, 行觞 instead of 行酒, and 弧 instead of 弓. They addressed each other as 徒, just like the Qin people did.

The part about 邦 is familiar to me, because the Qin prime minister was called the xiangbang and not the xiangguo (come to think of it, does this have implications regarding Liu Bang's name?). And 贼 and 寇 are synonyms in later Chinese but were apparently from different linguistic traditions during the Qin (寇 was probably the older word, because Western Zhou and a few Warring States had an official called the Sikou, in charge of prisons). This is similar to the fact that the two words for dog in Chinese, 'gou' and 'quan', are of different origin - 'quan' is supposedly Sino-Tibetan while 'gou' is Tai-Kadai, and 'gou' has become more popular over time.

Shang 觞 is now an "archaic word" for wine cup, and Hu 弧 is now an "archaic word" for bow. It is likely that their replacement by 酒 and 弓 during the Han was a process in which one regional vocabulary became dominant over another. This process did not take place in Chin-Han, which was cut off from cultural developments in the Central Plain.

[Yun]

I've heard that the "f" sound is nonexistent in Han dynasty Chinese

It's also absent in the Fujian dialect, which bears more similarity to Han dynasty Chinese (Middle Chinese). Hearing native Taiwanese mispronounce their 'f' as 'h' can be very amusing

[chan4059]

If the korean contains about 50% chinese, what is the other 50% ...???