47 replies to this topic

[tongyan]

is it just me or does it bug everyone when they see the surname 佘 and mistake it for 余 because 余 is so much more common. i'd hate to mispronounce somebody's surname because i wasn't paying close enough attention.
also, there are surnames that have alternate pronounciations to how the character is usually pronounced, which causes alot of confusion since different dialect groups may follow different pronunciation schemes for the same character!

ex:

單 usually pronounced 'dan1' but as a surname is 'sin6' (like in sin6 jyu5) (mandarin: chan-yu)
區 usually pronounced 'keoi1' but as a surname is 'au1'
費 usually pronounced as 'fai3' but as a surname is 'bei3'
仇 usually pronounced as 'sau4' but as a surname is 'kau4'

there are many like these, does anyone know of others?
interested in alternate pronunciations in all dialects

btw: my short list only applies to cantonese... ymmv in other dialects.

[Mok]

If I ever have kids they will get pronounciable (to gweilos), Hanyu Pinyin names that are also natural names in English. Or if I decide to move to Germany, then German.

2 names that I came up with off the bat: Anya and Dan. Chinese name probably 葉安雅/婭 and 葉單/丹.  I really need to get a life.

On topic: The Illustrious and Glorious History of Mein Ancestors

Copied from its article in wikipedia, which I contributed extensively.

Ye (surname)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Yè (T:葉 S:叶) is the 11th most common Chinese surname. Its variations in different Chinese dialects include Yee, Ee, Yip, Ip and Yap.
[edit]

Origins

The Yè surname is recorded to have started in the city of Ye, China , near present-day Nanyang in Henan (not to be confused with a different Nanyang that refers to South-East Asia). The surname has been in existence for some 2500 years.

In the Spring and Autumn Period the Chu prince, politician and general Shen Zhuliang (T:沈諸梁 S:沈诸梁), after scoring numerous victories for the Kingdom of Chu, was awarded the fiefdom of Yè, awarded the surname of Yè, and crowned Duke of Yè in 525 BC. After his death some of his descendants took the surname of Yè while others retained their original surname of Shen.

In Ancient Chinese "yè" was pronounced "shè" and had no particular meaning, but later merged with the word for "leaf" and took on its pronunciation "yè", due to the city being a major producer of vegetables.

In the Song Dynasty, Yè once again became a noble surname (著姓).

Famous people with this surname includes:

    * Ye Shaoweng, T:葉紹翁 S:叶绍翁; South Song Dynasty poet
    * Ye Chen, T:葉琛 S:叶琛; Ming Dynasty minister (?-1362)
    * Ye Dengzhong, T:葉澄衷 S:叶澄衷; tycoon, philanthropist
    * Ye Shengtao, T:葉聖陶 S:叶圣陶; educator (1893-1988)
    * Ye Ting, T:葉挺 S:叶挺; general, New Fourth Army (1896-1946)
    * Ye Jianying, T:葉劍英 S:叶剑英; general, New Fourth Army (1897-1986)
    * Ye Fei, T:葉飛 S:叶飞; commander in the PLAN

I'm pretty sure they are errors somewhere, so please correct them (or tell me) if you find any.

Dang, now I feel honour-bound to expound about the origins of my surname, Yim. Yan in Mandarin if you're interested, meaning stern, severe etc.

Yims, or Yans, were once Zhuangs, named after King Zhuang of Chu state during the Warring States period.

However during the Han Dynasty one of the emperors was also named Zhuang, and since it was taboo to share the emperor's name, it was changed to Yim. So Zhuangs and Yims can be said to be of the same family.

Some famous Yims include a general during the Three Kingdoms...and I forgot who else...must really go check it up.

[Mok]

is it just me or does it bug everyone when they see the surname 佘 and mistake it for 余 because 余 is so much more common.  i'd hate to mispronounce somebody's surname because i wasn't paying close enough attention.
also, there are surnames that have alternate pronounciations to how the character is usually pronounced, which causes alot of confusion since different dialect groups may follow different pronunciation schemes for the same character!

ex:

單 usually pronounced 'dan1' but as a surname is 'sin6'  (like in sin6 jyu5) (mandarin: chan-yu)
區 usually pronounced 'keoi1' but as a surname is 'au1'
費 usually pronounced as 'fai3' but as a surname is 'bei3'
仇 usually pronounced as 'sau4' but as a surname is 'kau4'

there are many like these, does anyone know of others?
interested in alternate pronunciations in all dialects

btw: my short list only applies to cantonese... ymmv in other dialects.

Yeah it can be quite a pain in the butt all right, esp. in Singapore with so many dialect groups, each with their own pronunciation of a single Chinese character. Whew! How is that for confusion. And even within the dialects there are sub-dialects...so there you go; you can kinda catch my meaning.

I'm mostly familiar with Cantonese romanisations for surnames but as I've expounded in an earlier post in this topic, I discovered to my chagrin that you can't blindly assume that you know a person's dialect just by their surname.

Don't know if I'll be of much help concerning dialects though.

And p.s., even within Cantonese there are alternate romanisations. like Cheung is preferred in Hong Kong but Cheong is preferred in Singapore.

And my kids will definitely have properly-romanised Cantonese names. No Hanyu Pinyin.

[AhMan]

you mean YanYan (严颜), the old general of Ba?
Did all Yan come from Zhuang? So it is quite a young surname compared to others.

[tongyan]

Yeah it can be quite a pain in the butt all right, esp. in Singapore with so many dialect groups, each with their own pronunciation of a single Chinese character. Whew! How is that for confusion. And even within the dialects there are sub-dialects...so there you go; you can kinda catch my meaning.

I'm mostly familiar with Cantonese romanisations for surnames but as I've expounded in an earlier post in this topic, I discovered to my chagrin that you can't blindly assume that you know a person's dialect just by their surname.

Don't know if I'll be of much help concerning dialects though.

And p.s., even within Cantonese there are alternate romanisations. like Cheung is preferred in Hong Kong but Cheong is preferred in Singapore.

And my kids will definitely have properly-romanised Cantonese names. No Hanyu Pinyin.

umm, as much as i realize the difficulty in the non-standardization of romanizing Chinese names, i was actually pointing to something alittle different. the examples of surnames i gave above are all pronounced in the gz/hk dialect. the character itself is read differently when it is used as a surname. do you see what i mean? maybe i should clarify myself with parallel examples.

ex:
單身(daan-sang) [single]
單勇 (sin-yong) [a name]

區別 (keoi-bit) [difference]
區穎 (au-wing) [a name]

費力 (fai-lik) [taxing, tiring]
費力 (bei-lik) [as a name]

you see, when used as a regular word or as part of a word compound, those characters listed have one reading/pronounciation but when they are used as a surname, they take on another pronounciation. this is all in the same dialect.

[Mok]

you mean YanYan (严颜), the old general of Ba?
Did all Yan come from Zhuang? So it is quite a young surname compared to others.

Don't know about Yan Yan. The Yan that I am talking about (sorry can't post Chinese ) is an offshoot of Zhuang, so yeah, it is young compared to others. But it has royal origins.

[Mok]

umm, as much as i realize the difficulty in the non-standardization of romanizing Chinese names, i was actually pointing to something alittle different.  the examples of surnames i gave above are all pronounced in the gz/hk dialect.  the character itself is read differently when it is used as a surname.  do you see what i mean?  maybe i should clarify myself with parallel examples.

ex:
單身(daan-sang) [single]
單勇 (sin-yong) [a name]

區別 (keoi-bit) [difference]
區穎 (au-wing) [a name]

費力 (fai-lik) [taxing, tiring]
費力 (bei-lik) [as a name]

you see, when used as a regular word or as part of a word compound, those characters listed have one reading/pronounciation but when they are used as a surname, they take on another pronounciation.  this is all in the same dialect.

Yes, I get what you mean. Unfortunately, as I've mentioned before, I can't post Chinese characters so I'm a bit impaired in this respect. However, this thing about different pronunciations of Chinese characters for surnames isn't something I've heard of before.

I learned to read Cantonese characters so I assume they're standard? Or maybe you're talking of vernacular? Also, which sub-dialect are you using?

'Cos as far as I know, there is only one standard Cantonese pronunciation for all Chinese characters (not vernacular Cantonese characters).

Sorry I'm not able to clear up your confusion due to the lack of software.

[yehzhaofeng]

The famous Ye General during the Chu Kingdom actually saved an Emperor during a seige at the capital.

[tongyan]

Yes, I get what you mean. Unfortunately, as I've mentioned before, I can't post Chinese characters so I'm a bit impaired in this respect. However, this thing about different pronunciations of Chinese characters for surnames isn't something I've heard of before.

i don't see why you would be impaired by not able to input Chinese characters. i mean, you can see my examples can't you?

I learned to read Cantonese characters so I assume they're standard? Or maybe you're talking of vernacular? Also, which sub-dialect are you using?

i dunno what u mean here. u learned to read cantonese characters? afaik, no cantonese characters are standard - only chinese characters that are not dialect-specific are considered standard. i am not talking about vernacular since we were talking about surnames.

i am from hong kong so i am using standard cantonese.

'Cos as far as I know, there is only one standard Cantonese pronunciation for all Chinese characters (not vernacular Cantonese characters).

you are wrong, unfortunately. i am positive that there are many characters with more than one standard cantonese pronunciation. there are simply so many examples of characters with more than one pronunciation.

i'll just list one to give u a better idea of what i'm talking about
try reading these aloud and see if the character 行 is pronounced the same way. if 行 sounds alike in all three word groups to you, then i need to take a break and re-assess my cantonese skills.

銀行 [bank]

行李 [luggage]

車行 [car repair shop]

Sorry I'm not able to clear up your confusion due to the lack of software.

i don't wanna sound rude, so please excuse me if u think i'm being rude. to put it bluntly, my original post asked if anybody had any examples of characters, when used as surnames, have a special pronunciation that it would not otherwise have if used as a regular character. i was not confused because i am 100% sure that surnames like these exist, in fact, i listed 3 or 4 above, i just wanted to know if there were more or if this phenomenon exists in other dialects of chinese. for you to "clear up my confusion" seems to imply that i am confused and you are clear about the subject but perhaps it might be the other way around.

[Mok]

i don't see why you would be impaired by not able to input Chinese characters.  i mean, you can see my examples can't you?

Unfortunately I am not able to see a dang thing except square blocks where there are supposed to be characters.

i don't wanna sound rude, so please excuse me if u think i'm being rude.  to put it bluntly, my original post asked if anybody had any examples of characters, when used as surnames, have a special pronunciation that it would not otherwise have if used as a regular character.  i was not confused because i am 100% sure that surnames like these exist, in fact, i listed 3 or 4 above, i just wanted to know if there were more or if this phenomenon exists in other dialects of chinese.  for you to "clear up my confusion" seems to imply that i am confused and you are clear about the subject but perhaps it might be the other way around.

Ok, at the risk of piqueing a guy, I'll desist. You are a Hong konger after all and have studied more Cantonese than I have. I was just intrigued that such differences exist that's all. No hard feelings here bro.

[tongyan]

Unfortunately I am not able to see a dang thing except square blocks where there are supposed to be characters.
Ok, at the risk of piqueing a guy, I'll desist. You are a Hong konger after all and have studied more Cantonese than I have. I was just intrigued that such differences exist that's all. No hard feelings here bro.

i thought you were able to see all the characters... hmm, it is kinda hard to get what i mean if u can't see what i'm writing. no hard feelings at all. if u do get a chance to get on a comp that can see the characters maybe you will see what i'm talking about - i'm a nerd.. i actually think it's pretty interesting, you might too.

[tongyan]

can't anyone comment on characters which have an alternate pronunciation when they are used as a surname? i don't believe this phenomenon is exclusive to cantonese...

[qrasy]

can't anyone comment on characters which have an alternate pronunciation when they are used as a surname?  i don't believe this phenomenon is exclusive to cantonese...

There are many of those things in Mandarin
Here are some of them:
http://www.angelfire...n/Linux/sn2.gif

The romanisation is sometimes incorrect, so this is for those who can read BOPOMOFO ㄅㄆㄇㄈ.
note: you cannot click directly on the link, it will be blocked. Instead, copy them in your address bar.

Edited by qrasy, 21 July 2005 - 11:10 PM.

[tongyan]

There are many of those things in Mandarin
Here are some of them:
http://www.angelfire...n/Linux/sn2.gif

The romanisation is sometimes incorrect, so this is for those who can read BOPOMOFO ㄅㄆㄇㄈ.
note: you cannot click directly on the link, it will be blocked. Instead, copy them in your address bar.

nice.. thanks for the link.

[urofpersia]

銀行 [bank]

行李 [luggage]

車行 [car repair shop]

The word in question is of course 行 Hang2 or Xing2.
In mandarin, 1st and 3rd sounds the same, Hang. 2nd is Xing. However, in this case the meanings of the words are different, 行 has the meaning of a trade or shop in 1 and 3, where in 2 the meaning is that of loco (as in moving) or mobile.

Another example 长 Chang2 or Zhang3

It can either mean the the length (Chang) or grow (zhang) in this case by changing the sounds they mean different things. Usually we dont have problem with differentiating them because they appear in context, example:

你的可以长多长？

Translated: How long can yours grow?