111 replies to this topic

[Chris Weimer]

Keep in mind that this is what Chiang Kai-shek and his KMT did in Taiwan as well.

You assume I supported Chiang Kai-shek, then? You assume too much.

Could you elaborate what is their ideology in relation with mandarin promotion? If so, doesn't every state has some policy? Think about the first emperor, what is his ideology? Also don't forget that most CCP high ranking officials are from dialect speaking areas, and they don't speak good mandarin.

Goujian - Yes, almost every state has this policy. It's genocidal.

My guess is that when China becomes a rich country, it will "rediscover" its linguistic variety and people will regain interest in its local heritage. But until then, economical and political conveniency is going to press Putonghua.

By then, it might be too late.

[Sephodwyrm]

I am not a big fan over dialects, since I personally felt that it gives rise to regionalism and provincialism. It does add "flavor" to expressions etc, and would be useful just as a means of communicating with others knowing the same dialect.

Enforcing a single dialect is not genocidal. If you felt so, then every state on the face of this blighted sphere are guilty of the same crimes. Chances are most of the half Swedish or quarter Armenians in the US can't speak Swedish or Armenian. It doesn't serve anything either. Moreover, language should be viewed as a tool to convey ideas, and when it cannot serve that purpose, it would be finished.

[hira]

I'd guess if parents were given a choice about which language they want their kids to learn at school, they'd say Putonghua.

Personally I feel very bad about languages being lost, I love the variety of expressions they convey; but let's face it: most people don't feel specially about their own languages. They just wanna progress in life. I met too many overseas chinese who didn't speak a word of chinese.

[lobster]

All schools in HK uses Cantonese. My cousin in Shenzhen told me they used Cantonese too but not in university.

[lobster]

My parents (who grew up in Shenzhen) had to speak Mandarin. Speaking Cantonese in school was not allowed. 

Dunno, my cousin is now 23/24. Maybe depends on which school.

Speaking other Guangdong dialects in HK schools won't get you a slap on the face. Classmates may make fun of you but all the teachers will wholeheartedly trying to help you learn the correct pronounciation.

[Chris Weimer]

I am not a big fan over dialects, since I personally felt that it gives rise to regionalism and provincialism. It does add "flavor" to expressions etc, and would be useful just as a means of communicating with others knowing the same dialect.

Enforcing a single dialect is not genocidal. If you felt so, then every state on the face of this blighted sphere are guilty of the same crimes. Chances are most of the half Swedish or quarter Armenians in the US can't speak Swedish or Armenian. It doesn't serve anything either. Moreover, language should be viewed as a tool to convey ideas, and when it cannot serve that purpose, it would be finished.

There's a big difference between a Swede giving up their heritage when they come to America and Swedes being forced to give up their language by a new dominant culture. What would you say if all the Chinese were forced to learn only English?

[Spc4]

http://www.chinese-e...g/hshlz/000.htm
http://www.wu-chinese.org/wenxue.htm
No, it tells me nothing.  The two terms (in addition to 言葉) have always been interchangeable in Chinese history.  方言 = 地方之语言，日本方言 = 日本语言，吴方言 = 吴地语言.  During the last 80 years, the term fangyan was redefined into the English term of "dialect", and the Sinitic languages came to be called solely fangyan for political expediency.  How does 1.2 billion speakers of the Sinitic group of the Sino-Tibetan language family only have one language?  Propaganda and official neglect.

Here is what linguists have to say about Chinese dialects:

The passage from Hannas's book is very misleading. The majority of dialects are merely accents of mandarin. Someone who knows mandarin can pick up local dialects/accents within a week just from listening. This would not be true of European languages, not even among romance languages.
Although GuangDong hua may not be comprehensible, it is still simply a different pronounciation of the same written words.
I haven't looked into the written form of dialects yet... will have to wait a little on that.
Every country has an official language. Assuming what you say about written forms is true, I see no point in officially reviving them. Even if the country wants to split up, I still doubt there will be popular support. Of course, you can pursue them individually as a hobby and nobody would care.

[nishishei]

I am not a big fan over dialects, since I personally felt that it gives rise to regionalism and provincialism. It does add "flavor" to expressions etc, and would be useful just as a means of communicating with others knowing the same dialect.

The regionalism already exists and has always existed. You are using oppression and denial to mold your idealistic sense of order. Maybe you should re-read that Chinese article I pasted again. Maybe if you denied long enough, it will come true, or maybe not.

Enforcing a single dialect is not genocidal. If you felt so, then every state on the face of this blighted sphere are guilty of the same crimes. Chances are most of the half Swedish or quarter Armenians in the US can't speak Swedish or Armenian. It doesn't serve anything either. Moreover, language should be viewed as a tool to convey ideas, and when it cannot serve that purpose, it would be finished.

Your using the US as an example isn't quite convincing. Most Chinese didn't have a choice of being Chinese when the Chinese nation-state came about. A better example is the French language policy. But even France has been far more tolerant of dialects in the last 30 years (in fact funding them to preserve them). And what are the Chinese doing today? Spending public money to create signs like "Be a modern person, speak Putonghua."

[nishishei]

The passage from Hannas's book is very misleading. The majority of dialects are merely accents of mandarin. Someone who knows mandarin can pick up local dialects/accents within a week just from listening. This would not be true of European languages, not even among romance languages.
Although GuangDong hua may not be comprehensible, it is still simply a different pronounciation of the same written words.

The sky is green too. No, it appears you are the one doing the misleading. The majority of MANDARIN DIALECTS are indeed variations of Mandarin, but not say Cantonese, Shanghainese, Taiwanese/Holo.

There are millions of non-Shanghainese speaking people in Shanghai who have lived in Shanghai for nearly a decade and cannot speak or comprehend basic phrases in Shanghainese. And Shanghainese is a relatively milder "dialect" to master for Putonghua speakers, compared to say Taiwanese/Holo. That's some hard "accent" to master. There are hundreds of online articles in Chinese you can google with titles like "Shanghainese is impossible".

Why don't you tell me how you write the Shanghainese words for "to be/to exist", "this", "there", "how", "pig", "no", "today", "day", "and", "on", "many", "home", "they", "to work", "to sleep" in Chinese characters? These are basic core words. And would a Mandarin-only speaker understand what you wrote? Do you even know what a Chinese word is defined as? It's not just the single character. Heck, Japanese can be written completely in Chinese too. And obviously you aren't very knowledgeable of the similarities between Spanish, Italian, French, Catalan, Occitan.

[dbslht]

All schools in HK uses Cantonese.  My cousin in Shenzhen told me they used Cantonese too but not in university.

Hmm..not quite. Alot of schools, primary schools especially, have
gradually switched over to the use of Putonghua for teaching Chinese.
Wah Yan Kowloon, for instance, made the switch 1 or 2 years ago..at least
for some of its classes.

I just spoke to a fresh graduate looking for a teaching post, and she
said she saw lots of job ads looking for Chinese teachers who can
teach in Putonghua.

[nishishei]

to spc4,
instead of flaming people and continuously repeating "Chinese dialects are accents" and "I speak Shanghainese", "Although GuangDong hua may not be comprehensible, it is still simply a different pronounciation of the same written words.", "Someone who knows mandarin can pick up local dialects/accents within a week just from listening.", you still have yet to pull out any evidence for your claims. Nor have you answered my questions:

Why don't you tell me how you write the Shanghainese words for "to be/to exist", "this", "there", "excellent", "how", "no", "today", "day", "and", "on", "many", "home", "they", "to work", "to sleep" in Chinese characters? These are basic core words. And would a Mandarin-only speaker understand what you wrote?

And guess what, I speak Shanghainese too. And let me tell you there are tens of thousands of Shanghainese/Wu words that are not part of Standard Mandarin vocabulary and are used everyday in Shanghai. Maybe you should visit Shanghai more. And no, Mandarin speakers would not understand fully what I wrote for the words above.

[nishishei]

On-topic,

Of course schools need to be taught exclusively in Mandarin. Mandarin is the official language (note I use 'language'), so that should be used in all branches of the government, especially education. As for the 'suppression' of local languages, nobody is gonna shoot you if you speak Shanghainese at home, right?

Of course. I definitely support Mandarin, but there ought to be dialect courses offered by schools for those who are interested, that is the least that the government can do. As for teaching exclusively in Mandarin, actually geography and some mathematics courses are taught exclusively in English in many Shanghai secondary schools. And billboards such as "Be a modern Chinese, speak Mandarin" is simply insulting.

Also you may not be aware that commercials in Shanghainese (just snippets) are repeatedly banned from airing.

[USC]

I agree with lobster. It's merely the CCP trying to kill off other Chinese cultures in favor of its own ideology. Take a look at European colonisation in the Americas and Australia. The first things they go after is language and religion.

Chris,
total non-sense!! Are you anti CCP?? whenever China trying to promote a national
language what has it got to do with killing off other Chinese or minority cultures???

Why are we learning English?? Is the Brit trying to whitewashed and kill other
races cultures too ??? cud not understand your logic??
language facilitate a communication, a unity, and more understanding and
harmony!!
more over many Chinese dialects are not in written form but just spoken form
UNDERSTAND!!


USC

[dbslht]

Chris,
total non-sense!! Are you anti CCP?? whenever China trying to promote a national
language what has it got to do with killing off other Chinese or minority cultures???

Why are we learning English?? Is the Brit trying to whitewashed and kill other
races cultures too ??? cud not understand your logic??
language facilitate a communication, a unity, and more understanding and
harmony!!
more over many Chinese dialects are not in written form but just spoken form
UNDERSTAND!!
USC

Chinese dialects, esp. in the south, continue to thrive. I don't see a systematic move in China to kill them off. Maybe some people see the promotion of mandarin as an attempt to kill them off...or as an indirect means to downgrading their use.

This is quite different from Singapore which intentionally tells its citizens NOT to
speak dialects but only Mandarin.