111 replies to this topic

[nishishei]

Chinese dialects, esp. in the south, continue to thrive. I don't see a systematic move in China to kill them off. Maybe some people see the promotion of mandarin as an attempt to kill them off...or as an indirect means to downgrading their use.

This is quite different from Singapore which intentionally tells its citizens NOT to
speak dialects but only Mandarin.

北方方言(包括西南方言)的生存环境最好；其次是粤语的生存环境也很稳定； 但是在大力推广普通话后，没有很好保护吴语方言。比如在上海，除了允许沪剧越剧滑稽剧等戏曲存在外，报刊不准刊登上海方言文章，一个时期还停止上海话的广播，不准发行上海话歌曲磁带，不准讲上海话的电影电视片播出和方言话剧的演出，也不组织专家审定方言用字，因此上海方言还停留在不见书面语的状态。而上海话原来是一个十分丰富的方言，尤其是近代社会中，从自来水、电灯泡、马路、洋房，从出租车到沙发、麦克风、文化、经济、报馆等等，上海话中一时造出和引进大量词语，现在却到需要保护的时候了。 - 钱乃荣，上海大学中文教授。

Translation:
"Northern Dialects (Mandarin dialects including Southwest Mandarin) have the best dialect development environment, followed by Cantonese which also has a relatively stable environment. However, the Wu dialects were not adequately protected from the intensive promotion of Mandarin. For example in Shanghai, other than for a few permited Hu 沪 and Yue 越 Operas live performances, Shanghainese articles are not permitted to be published in any newspaper; for a period even Shanghainese advertisements were barred; Shanghainese music tapes and CD's are banned; television stations are prohibited from using Shanghainese and even prohibited from broadcasting local Hu and Yue Opera programs; linguists were also barred from assigning Chinese characters for indigenous Shanghainese and Wu words, hence Shanghainese to this day remains in a non-literary state. But Shanghainese originally was an extremely expressive and well-endowed dialect, and now it is in need of our protection."

-Qian Nairong, Shanghai University, Professor of Chinese Language

http://www.chinanews...-20/1/4121.html

[Eishin21]

Nishishei, I remember 1 year ago in Shanghai, I watched a full show in Shanghainese. Maybe the situation has changed a bit recently.

[nishishei]

Nishishei, I remember 1 year ago in Shanghai, I watched a full show in Shanghainese. Maybe the situation has changed a bit recently.

Yeah!
Since about 2000, there is one Shanghainese show, but it's an adult audience oriented show. Just last year, a Shanghainese cartoon was banned after it was produced.

[AhMan]

Because Shanghainese don't possess Hongkong and Macau. Because Cantonese is the language of majority overseas Chinese. Because Cantonese have Hongkong which is a centre for Cantonese culture.

[Spc4]

Mandarin speakers would not understand fully what I wrote for the words above.

That's because there is no written form. I stand by every statement I made. Saying you can find a mandarin speaker who can't pick up accents/dialects is pointless. I can find someone who can't catch a ball. Yea, that really proves something, right? I have family and family friends from other parts of China and they could all at least comprehend Shanghai hua when they visited. Speaking takes them a little longer.

[nishishei]

That's because there is no written form.  I stand by every statement I made.  Saying you can find a mandarin speaker who can't pick up accents/dialects is pointless.    I can find someone who can't catch a ball.  Yea, that really proves something, right?  I have family and family friends from other parts of China and they could all at least comprehend Shanghai hua when they visited.  Speaking takes them a little longer.

No, there is a written form in characters. It is just not government sanctioned.
And just because a language has no writing, does it mean that it is not a language?

Don't forget that you had earlier claimed that Shanghainese and Cantonese can be completely written down in Mandarin, and that Cantonese and Mandarin is different only in accent.

So you stand by which one of your statements now? That all words in Shanghainese and Cantonese can be written down using the same characters as used in Mandarin? or that Shanghainese has no written form? And if Shanghainese has no written form, doesn't that mean Shanghainese is different from Mandarin in more than just "accents"??

[Spc4]

Let me clarify "That's because there is no written form." I assume you were asking me to romanize pronounciation such as "nong". People would not be able to read this because there is no official written form that is being taught. Romanization can only be so (in)accurate.
A language does not require written form. Accents, however, are not considered separate languages.

[nishishei]

Let me clarify "That's because there is no written form."  I assume you were asking me to romanize pronounciation such as "nong".  People would not be able to read this because there is no official written form that is being taught.  Romanization can only be so (in)accurate.
A language does not require written form.  Accents, however, are not considered separate languages.

Why would you assume that? Just because if Shanghainese uses Chinese characters also, doesn't mean it's AN ACCENT of Mandarin, not only are many characters used differently or completely non-existent in Mandarin, the grammar and word order is sometimes quite different and alien as well. Japanese, Korean used to write completely in 汉文 kanbun/hanbun, does that make them accents of Mandarin? The degree of differences is much smaller between Shanghainese and Mandarin, true, but there are enough differences between them to justify them as being different languages of the same family group (Sino-Tibetan --> Sinitic). That they are called dialects is more a matter of preference and politics than linguistic reality.

The recognized character for "you" in Shanghainese is 侬, traditional character: 儂.

And no, Shanghainese is not mutually intelligible with Mandarin (it is only barely intelligible with the Jianghuai dialect of Mandarin, which is like a transition zone between Wu and Mandarin). Why don't you ask any of the non-Shanghainese/Wu speakers on this forum for yourself?

Try to back up your personal beliefs with evidence and facts. Shanghainese and Cantonese are not accents of Mandarin.

[Chris Weimer]

Chris,
total non-sense!! Are you anti CCP?? whenever China trying to promote a national
language what has it got to do with killing off other Chinese or minority cultures???

Why are we learning English?? Is the Brit trying to whitewashed and kill other
races cultures too ??? cud not understand your logic??
language facilitate a communication, a unity, and more understanding and
harmony!!
more over many Chinese dialects are not in written form but just spoken form
UNDERSTAND!!
USC

Um, yeah. I'm not sure exactly what you said, but I think you were getting across something about the need for communication and unity. That's a load of bull. That's what Hitler tried to do, kill off anyone not "German" so he can have a unified state. Japan did the same thing, killing off many Chinese because they were "inferior". The British did it to Americas and parts of Africa, the Spanish to South America, etc... I can go on and on. If you really want to communicate with someone, take time out to properly learn their language. It's the least you could do.

[Spc4]

there are enough differences between them to justify them as being different languages

The grammar is the same; the pronouciation is different. Exactly how different is subjective, so lets move on from that. Accents are pronounced differently from each other, else the term would not exist. There is a gray area where an accent turns into a different language (ignoring writing). Based on my knowledge of both Shanghai hua and pu tong hua and personal experience of people pick up dialects, I judge them differently than you do.

[Spc4]

Um, yeah. I'm not sure exactly what you said, but I think you were getting across something about the need for communication and unity. That's a load of bull. That's what Hitler tried to do, kill off anyone not "German" so he can have a unified state. Japan did the same thing, killing off many Chinese because they were "inferior". The British did it to Americas and parts of Africa, the Spanish to South America, etc... I can go on and on. If you really want to communicate with someone, take time out to properly learn their language. It's the least you could do.

so quick to radical comparisons. Did anyone in China get killed for their dialect?

Do you ever see an American news broadcasts in a southern accent? Or ebonics? Would this have anything to do with a need for communication?

[nishishei]

The grammar is the same; the pronouciation is different.  Exactly how different is subjective, so lets move on from that.  Accents are pronounced differently from each other, else the term would not exist.  There is a gray area where an accent turns into a different language (ignoring writing).  Based on my knowledge of both Shanghai hua and pu tong hua and personal experience of people pick up dialects, I judge them differently than you do.

No, you judge them differently from not just me, but nearly all linguists, language professors in China, as well as Western East Asian linguists and East Asian language departments. Therefore, I seriously doubt your judgment and knowledge on this matter, as well as your proficiency in both Shanghainese and Putonghua. This is not your word against mine.

It's not subjective. How is it subjective? Two speeches are either mutually intelligible or they are not mutually intelligible (the only time when subjectivity comes about is when languages are semi-intelligible with each other, and Putonghua and Shanghainese do not fit this classification). Pronunciation, vocabulary and grammar differences can be accounted. The grammar is not the same. Shanghainese like other Wu dialects are significantly more Topic-Clause and SOV oriented than Mandarin and Cantonese. Shanghainese also has the present progressive tense (laehei), does Mandarin? No. Shanghainese is 30% more polysyllabic than Mandarin in the average conversation.

[hira]

I think is quite obvious that Spc4 knows absolutely nothing about linguistics and what a grammar is.

[tianzhuwoye]

I think is quite obvious that Spc4 knows absolutely nothing about linguistics and what a grammar is.

It's probably not fair to single Spc4 out on this one, his views are most likely that of the majority. The actual problem is that the idea that 'Chinese people should speak Mandarin' and the necessary belief that the other Sinitic languages are less 'real languages' than state-sanctioned Mandarin is purely ideological but extremely influential. These notions are required to keep the current policy alive and coherent, and what's frustrating is when this or any other propaganda is maintained as fact even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Such is nationalism and constructed identity.

[Spc4]

I think is quite obvious that Spc4 knows absolutely nothing about linguistics and what a grammar is.

well said, well said

The actual problem is that the idea that 'Chinese people should speak Mandarin' and the necessary belief that the other Sinitic languages are less 'real languages' than state-sanctioned Mandarin is purely ideological.

I can see why it can be considered ideological; it is political. I think this regional pride shown in this thread is pretty ideological also. It's almost like teen rebelliousness against random topics, especially when some don't even acknowledge the subjectivity of the matter. The thing is, the likely majority view is not taught. Teachers more often speak their dialect with parents and colleagues. Your beliefs would ring a stronger tune if the moderator here wouldn't delete opposing posts and threaten to ban people.