53 replies to this topic

[snowybeagle]

飛雪連天射白鹿
笑書神俠倚碧鴛

飞雪连天射白鹿
笑书神侠倚碧鸳

Which is your favourite novel and tell us why?

Of course, depending on the mood, it might vary.
But there should be an overall favourite as to which satisfy best things which you seek from reading wuxia novels.

Do you seek historical background or historical accuracy?
Or do you look for challenges which the protagonists had to overcome?
Or do you value the human element in interpersonal relationship?
Or do you want a story which has a good flow?
Great characterisation?
Cool villains?
Plots or plot devices?

Share with us, please.

[General_Zhaoyun]

I like "The Heavenly Sword and the Dragon Sabre 倚天屠龍記/倚天屠龙记" best. I personally haven't really read a Wuxia novel before. Much of what I know comes from watching HK drama series on Jinyong's wuxia novel.

[MengTzu]

Do you seek historical background or historical accuracy?
Or do you look for challenges which the protagonists had to overcome?
Or do you value the human element in interpersonal relationship?
Or do you want a story which has a good flow?
Great characterisation?
Cool villains?
Plots or plot devices?

Actually, Jing Yong novels tend to follow certain trends:

1) Plot: a man facing enormous suffering in life (poverty, being poisoned, being an orphan, being rejected by others) stumble upon some long lost formula of invincibility, becomes champion of the world of martial arts, defeats bad guys, marry the girl, the end. (it's a typical trend, but there are notable exceptions to parts of this trend: Wu Fei didn't get the girl; Lu Ding Ji is probably follows this trend the least.)

2) Characters: main guy -- very varied, from really stupid guy to really mischievous. main girl -- always very pretty and smart. characters in earlier work are often distinctly good or bad, but in later works good and evil become very nuanced.

3) History: very often the stories are tied in with some famous historical facts/legends.

4) Romance: some people have pointed out the subtle sexism in Jin Yung's novels. The main guy often have multiple love interests, and often is not devoted to only one. The main guy typically gets with one of them (there are exceptions,) and typically, the girls whom he doesn't get with, won't get with anyone else (they might become nuns, pass away, etc.) A notable exception to this is The Legendary Couple.

[AhMan]

I think what the main characters suffered reflects something about the early life of Louis Cha. Some betrayal or stuff like that.
I will post novels I don't like: Shendiao xialu because the awkward relationship between Yang Guo and his teacher.
Tian Long Ba Bu: because the B****** Duan Yu did not deserve it. Tragic ending for most characters.
She Diao Ying Xiong Zhuan: the ox Guo jing spoiled the whole story.
Xue Shan Fei Hu: not very focusing, uncomplete ending
Jiao Ao Jiang Hu: good story but not a movie has made me satisfied
Xia ke xing: not too bad but not very good either
I like to read Duke of the mountain Deer: very entertaining and made me laugh all the way to the end.
I don't like to read Yi tian tu long ji because after watching the movie with Tony Leung in it i think the movie is better than the novel.
Lian cheng jue is ok but the movie was completely different from the story.
I just skimmed through other novels and did not feel interested in them.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in his novel, the major character is always a Han guy and the bad guy is always a Tungus person. I only read parts of She Diao Yin Xiong Zhuang and Tien Long ba Bu, and thats what it seems like.

[lobster]

書劍恩仇錄 - major character 陳家洛 (Han), major bad guy 張召重 (Han)
碧血劍 - major character 袁承志 (Han), major bad guy 玉真子 (Han)
射雕英雄傳 - major character 郭靖 (Han), major bad guy 歐陽鋒 (Turk???)
神雕俠侶 - major character 楊過 (Han), major bad guy 金輪法王 (Tibetian)
雪山飛狐 - major character 胡斐 (Han), major bad guy 田歸農 (Han)
白馬嘯西風 - major character 李文秀 (Han), major bad guy (forgot name) (Han)
鴛鴦刀 - major character (forgot name) (Han), major bad guy (forgot name) (Han)
飛狐外傳 - major character 胡斐 (Han), major bad guy 石萬嗔 (Han)
倚天屠龍記 - major character 張無忌 (Han), major bad guy 成昆 (Han)
連城訣 - major character 狄雲 (Han), major bad guy (his sifu, forgot name) (Han)
天龍八部 - major character 蕭峰/段譽/虛竹 (Khitan/mixed Han and Baizu 白族/Han), major bad guy 慕容復/鳩摩智/丁春秋 (Xianbei/Tibetian/Han)
俠客行 - major character 石破天 (Han), major bad guy (none)
笑傲江湖 - major character 令狐沖 (Han), major bad guy 岳不群 (Han)
鹿鼎記 - major character 韋小寶 (mixed? unknown?), major bad guy 洪安通 (Han)

14 novels
major character - 13 Han, 1 Khitan, 1 Han/Baizu mix, 1 unknown mix
major bad guy - 11 Han, 2 Tibetian, 1 Turk, 1 Xianbei

Your call.

BTW I've read each and every one of them, at least twice.

[ahbian]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in his novel, the major character is always a Han guy and the bad guy is always a Tungus person. I only read parts of She Diao Yin Xiong Zhuang and Tien Long ba Bu, and thats what it seems like.

in tian long ba bu, there are 3 main characters but the 1 most universally admired and arguably the best written is the tragic hero, Xiao Feng. and he is a Qidan. of all the bad guys in the story, ding chunqiu is the most despicable and repulsive. he is a Han.

in his earlier works, he has derived his ideas from the traditional han versus non-han conflicts. his later novels emphasized more on assimilation and the tolerance of all ethnic groups for the overall good. not that he was suggesting han supremacy before. xiao ao jiang hu is also non historical, it can be set in any dynasty or any ethinic group.

in his last piece, lu ding ji, widely considered his best work and is strictly speaking more of a semi-historical novel than a wuxia novel, the Manchus, or more specifically, represented by Kangxi's reign, are put in a better light than the bungling Hans, mainly protrayed by the rebel groups, corrupt officials. and the terrible Ming rulers.

in a sense, kangxi was a 2nd major character in the novel and he was smarter, more handsome, more capable and better in all areas than the main guy, wei xiaobao.

[snowybeagle]

書劍恩仇錄 - major character 陳家洛 (Han), major bad guy 張召重 (Han)

Had not read the book but saw parts of the movie and TV series.
Hmm, I thought the real baddie should be Emperor QianLong (乾隆).

射雕英雄傳 - major character 郭靖 (Han), major bad guy 歐陽鋒 (Turk???)

Plus Yang Kang (杨康), a Han who preferred to serve his father's killer, the Jurchen prince Wanyan Honglie (完颜洪烈), who was the last major villain to be killed. Don't forget the lowlife Duan TianDe (段天德).

神雕俠侶 - major character 楊過 (Han), major bad guy 金輪法王 (Tibetian)

A Tibetan in the service of the Mongols, who was invading Southern Song at the time. In his own way, he probably did whatever had to be done in the service of his employers, which many ethnic Han also did when their empire was in ascendancy. Of course, his taking Guo Xiang (郭襄) hostage was hardly honourable, but the real scumbags were Yi ZhiPing (伊志平) and Zhao ZhiJing (赵志敬), though without the former, there might not be a story.

天龍八部 - major character 蕭峰/段譽/虛竹 (Khitan/mixed Han and Baizu 白族/Han), major bad guy 慕容復/鳩摩智/丁春秋 (Xianbei/Tibetian/Han)

Given that Ding ChunQiu was a disciple of TianShan (天山), he might not have been an ethnic Han.

笑傲江湖 - major character 令狐沖 (Han), major bad guy 岳不群 (Han)

Plus Zuo LengChan, Lin PingZhi (林平之) and Dongfang Bubai (东方不败).
The ethnic Hmongs (Miao 苗) got the cool Blue Phoenix!

鹿鼎記 - major character 韋小寶 (mixed? unknown?), major bad guy 洪安通 (Han)

+ Ao Bai, Wu SanGui, Feng XiFan & Zheng KeShuang.

I know you mean major bad dudes, but I also see from a slightly diff. perspectives.

[ahbian]

神雕俠侶 - major character 楊過 (Han), major bad guy 金輪法王 (Tibetian)

BTW I've read each and every one of them, at least twice.

i learned from some wuxia forums in the new edition, 金輪法王 is mongolian.

Jinlun Fawang is also now called Jinlun Guoshi or Imperial High Priest.

some people were complaining that Tibetan monks were negatively portrayed too much to their liking. and that Jin Yong always had left left ideas, etc....thus Jinlun is now a Mongolian monk who studied Lamaism in Tibet. Lamaism became the main religion in Mongolia.

Imperial Priest Jinlun is also changed to a more sympathetic figure. Guo Xiang did become the pupil of Jinlun. he loved her as a daughter and in the end died saving her from the burning platform.

[lobster]

I want to see where is the Tungustic bad guys that warhead finds that Jinyong put in every novel he writes.

*pass popcorn to everyone*

[lobster]

Had not read the book but saw parts of the movie and TV series.
Hmm, I thought the real baddie should be Emperor QianLong (乾隆).

Qianlong had more role in the novel, but 張召重 was painted more evil.

Plus Yang Kang (杨康), a Han who preferred to serve his father's killer, the Jurchen prince Wanyan Honglie (完颜洪烈), who was the last major villain to be killed. Don't forget the lowlife Duan TianDe (段天德).

There are certainly more than one good guy and more than one bad guy in each novel (in fact there is no 100% good and 100% bad guy), but I just want to make it simple and try to find out where is the one Tungustic bad guy that warhead was seeing in every novel.

Yi ZhiPing (伊志平)

It's Yun Zhiping 尹志平.

Given that Ding ChunQiu was a disciple of TianShan (天山), he might not have been an ethnic Han.

No he's not a disciple of Tianshan. His sifu was Wuyazi 無崖子, whose sifu was Xiaoyaozi 逍遙子. Both were Han, with no fixed address. Tonglao 童姥 was the peer of Xiaoyaozi, and it's Tonglao who later moved to Tianshan. Ding moved to Xingxiuhai 星宿海 after his mutany, but he had nothing to do with the indegenious people there, and he had mensioned that he was a Han in the novel. Ding surely had nothing to do with Tianshan.

i learned from some wuxia forums in the new edition, 金輪法王 is mongolian.

Jinlun Fawang is also now called Jinlun Guoshi or Imperial High Priest.

some people were complaining that Tibetan monks were negatively portrayed too much to their liking. and that Jin Yong always had left left ideas, etc....thus Jinlun is now a Mongolian monk who studied Lamaism in Tibet. Lamaism became the main religion in Mongolia.

Imperial Priest Jinlun is also changed to a more sympathetic figure. Guo Xiang did become the pupil of Jinlun. he loved her as a daughter and in the end died saving her from the burning platform.

I generally don't like Jinyong's recent revisions. It's killing the romantic and original feeling that we old fashioners have. The recent revisions are not making the novel better, but just to "modernize" or making them "politically correct". This IMO is nonsense.

PS: I bought a whole set of Jinyong novels in the early 90's.

[AhMan]

Judging that widely travelling people today still have problems with dialects how would those knights Jinyong created deal with this problem?
A lot of events took place in Jiangnan while the main characters were from the north. This only makes the problem worse.

[lobster]

Judging that widely travelling people today still have problems with dialects how would those knights Jinyong created deal with this problem?
A lot of events took place in Jiangnan while the main characters were from the north. This only makes the problem worse.

Language problem does play a part in the novel, as we can see from characters of different ethnicities not being able to talk to each other (doesn't mean they can't communicate ). Actually most of the events that took place in Jiangnan was in the Southern Song time frame, and since the capital was in Jiangnan at the time, I guess people should be able to speak that dialect. And Jinyong did write about dialect differences, as he wrote some characters speaking in Sichuan, Yangzhou, even Cantonese dialects. It's apparent he does know a lot about different dialects. But of course he had to simplify things a bit otherwise most people can't read his novels.

[lobster]

Just had a thought, Murong Fu 慕容復 must be a mix because his cousin Wang Yuyan 王語嫣 had a Han mother (Mrs. Wang 王夫人), and Mrs. Wang's husband was a Han as well (although Wang Yuyan is not his daughter). Apparently Murong Fu's father Murong Bo 慕容博 married either Mrs. Wang's sister, or her husband's sister, so Murong Fu's mother must be Han, so he is not 100% Xianbei, and thus not 100% Tungustic afterall.

So he's not a Tungustic bad guy.