200 replies to this topic

[Grigori]

If you're asking if China could have launched a successful offensive and drove US/ROK forces to the sea AFTER 1953, the answer is absolutely no.

By then the lines were firmly entrenched and US brought so much firepower to defend it that the PVA no longer had the capability to breech it. The PVA tried to make a breakthrough in '53 and were actually pushed back.

Holding a line with firepower is a game well suited to the American military. The Korean penninsula simply did not have the maneuver room necessary for the Chinese way of war. To break that line would require a LOT of tanks, amphibious or paradrop capability. China didn't have any of those assets then.

[wlee15]

Before the Chinese interjected in it the North Koreans were almost reduced to nothing.  When the Chinese came they pushed the South Koreans and Americans back so far.  Did America offer peace just so they can say it was a tie and remain powerful?  'Cause if China continued to press on they probally could have taken all of Korea for the Communists.

No the Chinese/North Korean supply lines were badly overstretched when they attempted to attack Seoul. The blocking action provided by U.N troops at the Battle of the Imjin river took away valuable time and supplies which resulted in a great defeat of Chinese forces at the Battle of Gapyong. From there a counter-attack by U.N forces pushed back the Chinese/North Korean forces back behind the 38th parralel. At this point the U.N forces were very adept at defending the human wave attacks with very deep position of defense and pre-plan withdrawal and counter-attacks. On the otherhand the geography of Korea made tanks, artillery, and aircraft less useful so a attack by the U.N would have been quite bloody and probably unsuccesful. Also remember it took two years after major conflict had ended before the armistice was signed in 1953, if either side sense that the other had a exploitable weakness they would of attacked.

[YesNo]

Mission Impossible

The main force of the UN forces was still in the South & China will not have the forces to drives them out

I also doubt China leaders have the hunger to do it becos they were just out of their own civil war & wanted to develop the lands before the Korean War

[HaSY]

what are the strength of chinese armies that time?
maneueverability?
march and attck at night?

what if Stalin commit his forces then?
would world war 3 happen?

[hansioux]

what are the strength of chinese armies that time?
maneueverability?
march and attck at night?

what if Stalin commit his forces then?
would world war 3 happen?

Human Wave attack. A.K.A 人海戰術

[Sephodwyrm]

Ignore the above comment. If China used human wave tactics, there would be no more Chinese.

[Grigori]

The sources of the "human wave" stories seems to be from American news journalists who did not witness these battles in person. First person accounts from American sources rarely mention concentrated attacks larger than battalion size.

The Chinese battlefield tactics seem to focus on night infilitrations to slip between defending forces and attack their less well defended postions and artillery sites. When the forces engage PVA tries to close with the enemy to negate their air and artillery support.

Several accounts refer to the vanguard of the attack using nothing but submachine guns supported by machine gun and mortar fire. Then a group of men carrying nothing but loads of grenades follow up by tossing grenades into the defensive postions. The effect of night attack and close combat probably exaggerated the Chinese numbers in the defender's mind.

Human wave attack was something the Europeans favored during WWI and I think they tried to sell that image to the folks at home so they can appreciate the intensity of the war. But if you look at the numbers, they don't add up. According to allied estimates PVA had 400,000 KIA in the war. PLA count is 150,000 KIAs. Consider most PVA casualties were from artillery and bombs, not machineguns, that would mean the PVA suffered remarkably low casualties using human wave attacks whichever source you believe in. In the Battle of the Somme of WWI, the British lost 20,000 KIA in the first day.

[bluebird]

Human Wave attack.  A.K.A 人海戰術

i think u should find some related book to read, donot just think by yourself!
casualties: China <<UN

[lobster]

The effect of night attack and close combat probably exaggerated the Chinese numbers in the defender's mind.

Interesting. I always thought CCP used huge numbers of soldiers to make up for the technical inferiority. Oh well.

Which makes me think of the European always thought Mongolians had a HUGE army, but in fact it was a pretty small army moving quickly popping up in many places, and "appeared" to be huge.

[Grigori]

Interesting.  I always thought CCP used huge numbers of soldiers to make up for the technical inferiority.  Oh well.

Which makes me think of the European always thought Mongolians had a HUGE army, but in fact it was a pretty small army moving quickly popping up in many places, and "appeared" to be huge.

Don't get me wrong, Chinese troops DID have numerical advantage over their opponents in Korea. The disparity was also distorted.

For example during the initial retreat of the UN forces in 1951 it was reported China had a million men in Korea when in reality PVA was one third that size. At Chosin Reservior the US Marines claimed the 5th Marine Division was attacked by 6 field armies when they were attacked by ELEMENTs of 6 armies. The Marines were also more than just one division, it included other support troops. Altogether the PVA arrayed against them was not much larger in number and certainly inferior in firepower.

US also claimed a 12-to-1 fighter shoot down record over Korea. But this would exceed the number of aircrafts the Communist side had. Years later USAF revised the number of enemy aircraft shotdown by half.

Estimating the number of enemy during battle was never an exact science. In Korea the US forces were fighting a limited war with little to measure progress in terms of territorial gains. So I think they substituted with a quantitative metric of how hard they had to fight and how heavy the enemy suffered. Inevitibly, this leads to exaggerations.

[Sephodwyrm]

As said before, if human wave tactic was indeed the tactic used by China or USSR, there would be no more Chinese or Russians left standing on this world.

[Tyler]

China History Forums members are mostly Americans in orgin so victory for who?

[snowybeagle]

China History Forums members are mostly Americans in orgin so victory for who?

CHF forummers may be mostly located in the US, but it does not mean they are mostly Americans in origins.

[Zuo Zongtang]

Here is a post I made a while ago that further illlustrates Chinese tactics.

Quote from Bevin Alexander's How Wars are Won

The Chinese had no air power and were armed only with rifles, machineguns, hand grenades, and mortars. Against the much more heavily armed Americans, they adapted a technique they had used against the Nationalists in the Chinese civil war of 1046-49. The Chinese generally attacked at night and tried to close in on a small troop position-generally a platoon- and then attacked it with local superiority in numbers. The usual method was the infiltrate small units, from a platoon of fifty men to a company of 200, split into seperate detachments. While one team cut off the escape route of the Americans, the others struck both the front and the flanks in concerted assaults. The attacks continued on all sides until the defenders were destroyed or forced to withdraw. The Chinese then crept forward to the open flank of the next platoon position, and repeated the tactics.

[Spc4]

about the human waves:
http://www.centurych...y/faq4.shtml#20

and counting casualties:
http://www.centurych...y/faq5.shtml#21