92 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

Just curious what weapon this is? I found this picture at China-defense.

Is this a missile launcher?

[Liang Jieming]

Read this thread.
http://www.chinahist...dpost&p=4719911

火箭车 (Huo3 Jian4 Che1, Fire Arrows Vehicle)
In field operations Ming troops put the vehicles in front to defend themselves.

[Altaica Militarica]

火箭车 (Huo3 Jian4 Che1, Fire Arrows Vehicle)
In field operations Ming troops put the vehicles in front to defend themselves.

This is really missile launcher called "hoche" in Chinese and "hwacha" in Korean.

The missile was in the shape of a long arrow with an attached pipe filled with gunpowder. It is said in Korean sources that in 1451 King Munjong (fifth king of Yi dinasty) observed the test-firing of hwacha during the manoevres. The missiles hit all targets within 80 "po" (Chinese "bu"). As a measure of length it is equal of 1,5 meters. So it was able to hit targets effectively approximately in the range of 120 meters.

Best regards,

Alexey.

[Liang Jieming]

Actually there seems to be a very fundamental difference between pictures we have of the Hwacha and that of the Houjianche. The Houjianche houses it's arrows enmass in a few separate boxes which can be fired box by box. The Hwacha however, has it's arrows all slotted individually in one big box and when fired, the fire off in sequence not unlike the Russian Katyutshas.

So my question would be, are these modifications a indigenous Korean adaptation of were they Ming Chinese modifications which we've yet to find pictures of?

[caocao74]

When I was in Seoul, I saw a reconstruction of a Hwacha, and the attached sign about it being a Korean invention.

Was it a Korean invention? A Chinese invention? Or were the two machines independently designed and built (i.e., without knowingly reproducing the other's weapon) ?

[Altaica Militarica]

Actually there seems to be a very fundamental difference between pictures we have of the Hwacha and that of the Houjianche.  The Houjianche houses it's arrows enmass in a few separate boxes which can be fired box by box.  The Hwacha however, has it's arrows all slotted individually in one big box and when fired, the fire off in sequence not unlike the Russian Katyutshas.

So my question would be, are these modifications a indigenous Korean adaptation of were they Ming Chinese modifications which we've yet to find pictures of?

Please don't be misled by images! The principle of the ignition is the same. I am attaching a pic with Ming soldiers who fires such separate box as could be fired portable rocket launcher.

The device of ignition is a simple match. So it couldn't ignite all matches simultaneously.

And we see the "huoche" in "Shilu" of Ming Chengzu when the loyalist army applied such kind of weapon agaist Mongol allies of Zhu Di in 1401.

I think the situation with "Korean invention" is not true. Koreans could borrow such a weapon in China at first and then to modify it slightly.

Please look at this pic. And some more images from my forum in Russian.

http://ramus.ru/foru...topic.php?t=145

Best regards,

Alexey.

[Altaica Militarica]

When I was in Seoul, I saw a reconstruction of a Hwacha, and the attached sign about it being a Korean invention.

Was it a Korean invention? A Chinese invention? Or were the two machines independently designed and built (i.e., without knowingly reproducing the other's weapon) ?

The matter seems to be like following:

The weapon was initially invented in China (I think in the end of Yuan era) and then borrowed by Choe Muson (Koryo) who was the main specialist for firearm production in Koryo (as Koryo and Yuan were good allies). I have seen the mentioning of the improvement made for these devices during the reign of King Munjung (1450-1452).

It seems to be like substitution of simple rocket arrow to the multiple of hwat'ongs (or barrels similar to gun-barrels to launch rocket arrows) charged with heavy arrows.

There were produced 130 pcs of hwacha which were distriduted along the Northern border of Korea.

Best regards,

Alexey.

[Altaica Militarica]

Please see another one pic of the Ming portanle rocket launcher and a replica of it.

i think nobody could fire without any support such a plenty of rockets - he would be crippled immediately. But we are to see that the type of the rocket case on the Ming pic is the same as in Chinese replica of this weapon and the "huoche" replica.

[Liang Jieming]

Ah. Good. Where did this picture come from?

[yehzhaofeng]

It is obvious that the picture Liang Jieming does shoot those spear-like projectiles because there is a soldeir next to it holding a batch of them, reloading perhaps?

These are awesome you guys, I've never seen such inventions. I am currently watching a Hong Kong Drama, legend of Lady Fan. The Tang army had use large shield with spears attached to the center and we pushed toward their enemies.

[Altaica Militarica]

Ah.  Good.  Where did this picture come from?

Korean treatise "Yungwon p'ilbee" (XIX). It was compiled in 1813 by Park Jonggyung, the general of Guard Training Department. He dealt with production of weapon for Korean Royal Guard and Provincial troops and compiled such a guide to ease the work of officials engaged in the prduction process.

Best regards,

Alexey.

[Altaica Militarica]

It is obvious that the picture Liang Jieming does shoot those spear-like projectiles because there is a soldeir next to it holding a batch of them, reloading perhaps?

These are awesome you guys, I've never seen such inventions. I am currently watching a Hong Kong Drama, legend of Lady Fan. The Tang army had use large shield with spears attached to the center and we pushed toward their enemies.

Do you mean the "jianche" (knife-cart) devices depicted in "Wujing Zongyao"?

Best regards,

Alexey.

[Liang Jieming]

Hmmm... it reinforces my original point. There doesn't seem to be a Ming dynasty launcher that has the same configuration as the Hwacha. The closest examples other than the handheld variety seems to be the Huoche. The Huoche is just lots of handheld boxes tied down onto a wheelbarrow type platform. The Hwache on the other hand seems to be a significant indigenous Korean modification that fires a stream of rockets in a continuous stream rather than in "packets" or box by box.

Edited by Liang Jieming, 24 May 2005 - 01:31 AM.

[Altaica Militarica]

Hmmm... it reinforces my original point.  There doesn't seem to be a Ming dynasty launcher that has the same configuration as the Hwacha.  The closest examples other than the handheld variety seems to be the Huoche.  The Huoche is just lots of handheld boxes tied down onto a wheelbarrow type platform.  The Hwache on the other hand seems to be a significant indigenous Korean modification that fires a stream of rockets in a continuous stream rather than in "packets" or box by box.

Unfortunately I can not attach a photo of Hwacha replica (932 kB) from the Museum of Korean Army (Seoul), where the period of usage is indicated as the end of XIV century.

It means that the original invention was done in the end of Yuan - beginning of Ming era. In "Zhu Yuanzhang Zhuan" by late Prof. Wu Han it is said that rebells used rocket launcers during the on-water battles.

But it is impossible to fire all bundle of rockets simultaneously as:
1) the system of ignition is far from being perfect and can fire matches one by one
2) the kick after the shot would be so strong that it could demolish the case completely

Best regards,

Alexey.

[Liang Jieming]

Korean Hwacha replicas.



Looks like the Chinese didn't invent this configuration unless someone knows otherwise.