92 replies to this topic

[Altaica Militarica]

Korean Hwacha replicas.



Looks like the Chinese didn't invent this configuration unless someone knows otherwise.

I think there is no difference in the principle of performance. The main udea is to change charged cartridge quickly and to fire the weapon by igniting the matches of rockets. Another case for the same device.

I meant I couldn't attach a photo with the period indicated - XIV century! Official mentioning of this weapon in Korea was of 1451! And Choe Muson invented a lot of different rocket/arrow launchers as said in "Koryo sa" before the reign of Chosun dinasty.

Best regards,

Alexey.

[Liang Jieming]

Yes, the principle was the same but the firing configuration was very different. What puzzles me if that Yun mentioned that one of the sketches from a manual of what looks like a korean hwacha was probably from a Ming dynasty source. So that's why I'm now curious as to whether this configuration is Ming dynasty or Korean indigenous.

1451 is the date the hwacha is supposed to have been invented in Korea. Was there a precursor with a similar configuration in the Ming dynasty prior to 1451 that is not like the earlier huoche version?

[yehzhaofeng]

YES! Jianche, exactly! Thanks Alexey for clearing thigns up.

[Gubook Janggoon]

You mean this picture right?

http://www.act.com.s...ages/hwacha.jpg

Yun attributes it to a Ming millitary manual. Although I have my suspicians that it may be froma Korean source as it is cited in A New History of Korea by Ki-baik Lee.

Not quite sure.

[Liang Jieming]

Yeah. That's the one. I'm not so sure it's chinese now. I think it's a korean variant. Will need Yun to help here.

Reason I'm being so picky is because Thomas suggest I build the hwacha. Before I do, I want to make sure I get references right.

[Thomas Chen]

I just love the WW2 and modern versions of these little rockets... As for their nicknames, "Katyushas" sounds so sexy and feminine... "Stalin Organs" sounds a bit crude...







Incidentally, there was this trial shoot and experiment a few years ago by the United States and Israel which successfully used lasers to shoot down incoming katyushas...

[Liang Jieming]

I just love the WW2 and modern versions of these little rockets... "Katyushas" sounds so sexy and feminine...

Ya but the alternative name "Stalin's Organs" kinda spoils the image doesn't it?

[Yun]

Here's the page with the posts about the question of where this picture of the rocket-launcher came from:

http://www.chinahist...opic=2076&st=15
(30 Jan posts by Gubook Janggoon and I)

GJ mentioned Lee Ki-baik's claim that the launcher was invented by King Munjong of Korea, but Altaica Militarica earlier cited a source that suggests that Munjong was just the first Korean ruler to adopt this weapon in his army:

It is said in Korean sources that in 1451 King Munjong (fifth king of Yi dinasty) observed the test-firing of hwacha during the manoevres. The missiles hit all targets within 80 "po" (Chinese "bu"). As a measure of length it is equal of 1,5 meters. So it was able to hit targets effectively approximately in the range of 120 meters.

I have not yet been able to trace the picture, but as for whether the design was never seen in Ming China, I have found this other picture from the Wubei Zhi that suggests it was:



This launcher is said to contain 100 rocket arrows, with five spears below them for added offensive power. It is pushed by 2 soldiers who ignite the rockets while charging at the enemy.

[Yun]

Ya but the alternative name "Stalin's Organs" kinda spoils the image doesn't it?

Actually it isn't 'organs' as in internal organs. 'Stalin's Organ' comes from the fact that the Katyusha looks like a pipe organ (the kind played in churches) laid on its side.

[Liang Jieming]

Ah goody! I knew I could count on Yun to clear things up. This picture of the Huoche in the Wubei zhi looks like a cross between the earlier huoche and the korean hwacha, like some transitional weapon. hehehe

Oh ya, and ah... Stalin's organs, obviously from the resemblance to church organs though inventive minds would say otherwise, especially what one could imagine dear ol' sigmund freud might have said.

[Altaica Militarica]

1451 is the date the hwacha is supposed to have been invented in Korea.  Was there a precursor with a similar configuration in the Ming dynasty prior to 1451 that is not like the earlier huoche version?

I have no idea regarding the construction of the huoche used Jingnan war (1401-1403). But jugding by the "Wubei zhi" image we can assume that Mao Yuan Yi just copied this pic from Wujing Zongyao (ashe used samples from more than 2000 old treatises). IMHO the answer is in original edition of Wujing Zongyao.

Let me quote the article from Korea (by Yang Sung-jin) regarding hwacha.

QUOTE:
On Jan. 16, 1451, King Munjong appeared in a military exercise taking
place near the palace. A total of 700 soldiers formed a tactical lineup
composed of a mock attack and defense. The operation was orderly and fine-tuned, the Annals historiographers observed.

Meanwhile, cannons were test-fired in front of the king. Then, the soldiers performed a demonstration of hwacha (fire cartwheel) which shot through all the targets positioned 80 steps apart.
UNQUOTE.

So there is no indications that the weapon was invented that time, but only the demo-firing of this weapon was mentioned.

Best regasrds,

Alexey.

[Liang Jieming]

Hmmm... I need to get my hands on a copy of the Wujing zongyao.

[Altaica Militarica]

You mean this picture right?

http://www.act.com.s...ages/hwacha.jpg

Yun attributes it to a Ming millitary manual.  Although I have my suspicians that it may be froma Korean source as it is cited in A New History of Korea by Ki-baik Lee.

Not quite sure.

It seems like to be the image from the Korean "Five rites" ("Orye yeui"), section "Military rites" ("Gunrye Sorye"). I have got this image in the "History of wars of Korea", Seoul, 1990-s.

Best regards,

Alexey.

[Gubook Janggoon]

So it seems that the image is froma Korean source, but the Hwacha was invented by China.

Makes sense.

[Liang Jieming]

So it seems that the image is froma  Korean source, but the Hwacha was invented by China.

Makes sense.

General Turtle, you have more pictures of the Hwacha? I'm still in need of more details.