145 replies to this topic

[phoenix_bladen]

Is Chinese a nation, state..........or considered a modern day empire? Considering that there are alot of territories that were self ruling nations or kingdoms before such as tibet, Inner mongolia, Manchuria, Xinjiang?

What do you think?

[Sun Wukong]

A modern day empire. Much of China now has many types of ethnic groups. The Han, Tibetians, Mongols, and all other groups are being brought together into one country. This is a good thing, people from all different corners being united into one country sharing the prosperity and sharing cultures of Asia for many years from the past and now they are brought together as one. However, at times these things tend to lead to cultural conflicts, religions, and customs.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Chinese Imperialism has ended in 1911, with the collapse of the last imperial dynasty Qing. After that, China was no longer ruled by emperor, and thus an empire (i.e. a territory ruled by emperor) no longer existed in China.

China is now a modern republic (a state ruled by a President and not a monarchy) or a modern country, not a modern empire. To say China is an empire is like saying America is also an empire. Certainly, emperor (a symbol of imperialism or empire) doesn't exist anymore in China. That's why it's not correct to say China is an empire.

Take note that "imperialism" can carry itself with a bad connotation or name in China as it's often connected with the western "imperialism" or colonization in which the western power attempted to occupy and dissect the lands of China during the 19th century. During the 20th century, the most aggressive 'imperialists" in China is Japan, who attempted to conquer the whole of China, launching the war against China during the 1930s. All of this has resulted in the humiliation of China during the 19th and 20th century.

"Imperialism" is called "Di Guo Zhu Yi 帝国主义" or "Jun Guo Zhu Yi 军国主义" in chinese, whose ideology is to create an empire (a large territory) through military expansion, war and conquest, or through diplomatic means. Certainly, China had been plagued by foreign imperialism, which resulted in an Anti-Imperialism movement during 20th century led by Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Anti-Imperialism also resulted in rising nationalism in China, in which the strong belief or concept of 'nation" took its root in China during the 20th century.

Is Chinese a nation, state..........or considered a modern day empire? Considering that there are alot of territories that were self ruling nations or kingdoms before such as tibet, Inner mongolia, Manchuria, Xinjiang?

What do you think?

Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang etc. are not 'nations' within China. They are autonomous region or self-ruling provinces in China. In the past, they were separate kingdoms from China, but a large portion of these nations such as Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang were brought under the rule during Qing Empire's imperialism period (it expands its territory through military conquest to its height during Qianlong period).

During Republic of China period, they became more or less independent from the rule of central government. But after CCP took over, Mao Zedong invaded these territories and made them part of Chinese nation. The argument is that "China is an independent nation with sovereignty and should attempt to make sure that its territory should be complete"

The chinese had always attempted towards syncretism (i.e. fusing the multi-ethnicities in China into 1 so-called "Chinese people" 中华民族 ). That was the concept behind Sun Yat Sen's national identity during his foundation of Republic of China.

[temujin77]

I don't think China is considered an Empire. While it is true that China embodies a number of cultural groups that if we start over from a blank slate would not likely fall under the Chinese flag, China is not actively seeking expansion in territory.

Of course, there are always other views, such as those who support the Inner Mongolia independence movement who view China as an oppressive Empire that is holding on to territory that did not belong to them. So this is really a rather interesting conversation. From those views, China does rather looking like not so much of a militarily expanding Empire, but rather a possessive incarnation of a former Empire that transformed into a new definition of an Empire that is holding on to territory that some view they should let go.

China's quest to acquire Taiwan under its wings does not give it a status of an Empire that is expanding militarily. Despite being Chinese from Taiwan myself with feelings against Taiwan to fall under Beijing, when I place myself in the shoes of Beijing executives, I can understand that in their view Taiwan is a matter of civil dispute, not foreign expansion, despite Taiwan has acted as an independent sovereignty for the past ~50 years.

[Kulong]

China is no different than any other major nation including U.S., Russia or even Canada. Although compare to countries like U.S., Russia and Canada, China has conquered and colonized far less land. But for some reason, people tend to think it's OK for U.S. to conquer the whole North America while killing off the native population while it's not OK for China, go figure.

[lobster]

I think USA is a modern day empire. Always trying to impose their way of thinking onto others.

BTW long time no see Kulong.

[Kulong]

I think USA is a modern day empire.  Always trying to impose their way of thinking onto others.

I don't think that's the definition of an "empire" though, just a characteristic given to it by Hollywood. If anything, U.S. is an semi-oppressive global dictator. They are able to threaten any country, give a BS excuse to invade it and get away with it.

BTW long time no see Kulong. 

Yes siree!

[Mei Houwang]

Kulong, where you've been?

It all depends on how you define an "empire". Empire doesn't always = imperialism.

Considering that there are alot of territories that were self ruling nations or kingdoms before such as tibet, Inner mongolia, Manchuria, Xinjiang?

Although China could be defined as an "empire"(dictatorship), this reason would be totally invalid, since there's just as much conquered territories that were self ruling nations under other countries about the size of China as well. Would the US, Russia, or India be considered an empire?

[Kulong]

Kulong, where you've been?

I've been around... CHF got a little too big and active for my taste so I left for a bit since I didn't have as much free time since I started my new job and trying to launch my own business at the same time

It all depends on how you define an "empire". Empire doesn't always = imperialism.
Although China could be defined as an "empire"(dictatorship), this reason would be totally invalid, since there's just as much conquered territories that were self ruling nations under other countries about the size of China as well. Would the US, Russia, or India be considered an empire?

Very true.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

No, first of all, the definition of an empire is not just a state with different ethnic group, that would include every state ever existed in history. the definition of empire is controlling terrtitory are not part of the motherland, such as clolonies and protectorates. So no China is not an empire, every part of its territory that it occupies is officially part of the Chinese state. Its not even a neo colonial empire in any sense, since it doesn't station troops abroad.

[hira]

An Empire is a state which encompasses many nations ruled by a single one.

And China is an empire. Han Chinese rule Tibetans, Turks, Zhuangs, etc., often against their will. The CCP inherited the Qing empire, often invading places which would try to escape from it (Tibet)


The USA is nothing the like. There are no nations inside the USA, but inmigrant groups who voluntarily abandond their home countries to be subject to the US government. And those people have equal rights with anglo-saxon or European descent americans. If you think America is a global empire because it exploits the world economically; well, you're nuts. But anyway, that would be a different discussion. The fact is that American territory is not home to any subjected nation. Well, maybe the native indians, but they are mostly extinct/assimilated by now.

Rome was a republic when it conquered Spain, Italy, Greece, France, and most of Northern Africa. The political regime of a state doesn't depend on it having a figurehead, that's accesory.

[tianzhuwoye]

The USA is nothing the like. There are no nations inside the USA, but inmigrant groups who voluntarily abandond their home countries to be subject to the US government.

This isn't real true of the ancestors of a pretty hefty part of the American population.

The fact is that American territory is not home to any subjected nation. Well, maybe the native indians, but they are mostly extinct/assimilated by now.

When the Tibetans, Uyghurs and Mongols are exterminated or fully assimilated, will everything be okay in the PRC, too?

If you think America is a global empire because it exploits the world economically; well, you're nuts. But anyway, that would be a different discussion.

How about America and the PRC, etc, as a new kinds of empires? The world is socially and economically a very different place from the situation during the age of 'classical' imperialism. Maybe 'empire' as a concept has adapted.

[General_Zhaoyun]

And China is an empire. Han Chinese rule Tibetans, Turks, Zhuangs, etc., often against their will. The CCP inherited the Qing empire, often invading places which would try to escape from it (Tibet)

As far as I know, Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia are all autonomous region in China and they are not totally ruled by han-chinese and they are not nations. There are also tibetans that are rulling Tibet, Xinjiang is ruled by Uighurs etc...These territories are chinese territories, part of Chinese nations for centuries, and thus reclaiming these places back is correct. The han chinese didn't rule Tibetans, Turks, Zhuang.. the chinese congress is consisted of representatives from 56 chinese ethnicities in China.

The USA is nothing the like. There are no nations inside the USA, but inmigrant groups who voluntarily abandond their home countries to be subject to the US government. And those people have equal rights with anglo-saxon or European descent americans.

You will notice that according to US history, US was busy expanding its territory during the 19th century, occupying California, and later Hawaii westwards. Now, these lands belong to native americans, so what gives them the right to invade a territory that doesn't belong to them.. the result is to exterminate them or assimilate them...

[Sephodwyrm]

Manifest destiny, religious fervor and Darwin's Biologism are one of the few makings of the Neo Empires that the world has seen. China has none of that. We don't claim to have a superior religion or race.

[Richard]

Americans, as British colonists since 1607 and as a nation since 1776 have committed many wrongs, to indigenous people and cultures and to the environment of North America. Much of this is irreversible and it is not OK in the minds of most of the people that I know. This is no big secret to open minded Americans and others who study history, but may be a revelation to some Americans who cannot think outside the box or see history from another's perspective.

The tendency toward territorial expansion at the cost to others and the exploitation of the natural environment, however, is true of many other countries and peoples of the world in their areas of the globe, throughout time, but it is more obvious in American history perhaps because it is so recent (the last 400 years) and perhaps better documented. Unfortunately, the tendency toward expansion and exploitation seems to be part of human nature that must be corrected if future generations are to live sustainable lives in peace. Hopefully, America's past sins and those of many other countries world wide will not be set as an example to be emulated in the future.

I hope that people will also bear in mind that not all people of a nation may agree with the actions of their government, which may be elected with just 51% of the electorate (if they even have free elections at all). In any nation, the views of the populace are not monolithic.

Is China an empire or becoming one? I hope not. Is the US an empire? I also hope not.