37 replies to this topic

[Rong Qin Wang]

From what I have read, the two sons were deathly afraid of their mother. It was understandable when the rumors had it that she was responsible for the death of their two elder brothers. Both of her two elder sons had much stronger personalities and openly criticized her close association with her rumored lovers and her involvement in politics. The speculations placed the reasons for her elder sons' exile and death at the foot of their oppositions of her behaviors. Therefore, the two younger sons tried to behave as weak as possible so that they would not get exiled or killed. At one time, Wu was sending a messenger to ZhongZong's exiled place, and he thought Wu was sending the order to kill him. The whole family was holding each other and crying until the massager told him Wu did not send any order of execution.
Wu Zetian was very close to her daughter princess Taiping. Princess Taiping supposed to prescreen Wu's lovers for her. I am not sure why you get the impression that princess Taiping was much closer to her brothers and her father's lineage. I have not read in any places that princess Taiping spoke up for the rest of the royal families when Wu Zhetian was killing them with various excuses. On the contrary, she was very close to her Wu cousins and had a few of them as her lovers.

As for children taking after their mother’s surname, that idea was not radical at all. Since ancient time (Qin and pre-Qin era), there were cases where men married into a women's family and the children took up mothers' last name. It was not impossible. Princess Taiping could follow that route. She didn't need to change her name to Wu, and her children could take on her last name. Taiping and her husband could sacrifice to Wu Zetian according to the same tradition (it was a little grey since she had brothers, but, hey, it wasn't that far fetched.) She could definitely make it into the law. If she was a capable enough person, she could have manipulated the court officials into letting her do it. Her mother did many of those manipulations.

However, I think Taiping was not really a capable person and Wu Zetian knew it. Taiping was not a good person by all accounts, and I am not taking into account of her sex life at all. She was both in favor of her parents and in power for many years, and there was no record at all of any positive contribution from her -- no words nor deeds. In addition, Zhongzong was weak, but he was harmless to the people. Princess Taiping was very bad to the people. When she built her palace, she took properties from the surrounding commoners by force. When she went on streets, she caused chaos and damages to people and properties. Basically, Wu Zetian knew Taiping would be a lousy ruler. I think that would be the most important reason why she did not name Taiping as her heir. In addition, princess Taiping probably did not have the necessary skills in the tricky political arena of trying to be an empress, and Wu Zetian knew it. If Wu made Taiping to be the Crown Princess, Taiping would eventually get killed. From what I read, Taiping was Wu Zetian's favorite child. I remembered Wu Zetian had commented, "Taiping took after me the most." Therefore, I believe it was to protect Taiping that Wu Zetian did not name her as an heir.

Zunjing de Fireball,

Thank you so much for your responses; it is a great pleasure to meet you! You have not only given me some new information, but also open my eyes to some different viewpoints! With this, I shall ask some more questions and add more comments.

Of course, Tang Zhongzong and Tang Ruizong were deadly afraid of their mother. Even if there were no rumors that she was involved in the deaths of their two elder brothers, her ferocious nature and lack of femininity would have least likely brought mother and sons closer together. Yes, Wu Zetian’s two older sons were pretty competent princes; hence, it was too bad neither of them made it to the throne since they would have made fine Emperors. However, I don’t think Zhongzong and Ruizong behaved as weak as possible to escape their mother’s suspicions since I believe they were plain weak by nature. Genetically speaking, I don’t see how a strong woman like Wu Zetian can produce those two very weak sons. Perhaps I did not think of the factor of taking after their father, the very incompetent Tang Gaozong?

Honestly, I have not read too many sources regarding Princess Taiping. In fact, I have failed to find a real biography on her in Vietnamese or English. Hence, all I know about Taiping would be some mentions of her from articles on her parents and brothers. Therefore, I would really appreciate any information you can give about this princess.

I initially thought Wu Zetian and Princess Taiping were very close to each other; however, some modern sources I have read stated otherwise since the relationship between them was only a little less intense than of Wu Zetian and her sons’ because of the power struggles between the Li and Wu families, of which the mother and daughter each represented.

Well, of course, Taiping did not speak up for the Li family when her mother was trying to kill them since she, like her brothers, were afraid to do anything against their mother’s wishes even though she was probably the favorite. However, some sources did indicate that Taiping did loosely collaborate with Di Renjie by repeatedly questioning her mother about how nephews would not have ritual offerings for their aunt. Thus, she indirectly lobbied the way for her 3rd brother to be reinstated as the Crown Prince.

Oh no, I have never read any accounts about Taiping being very close to her Wu cousins and having a few of them as her lovers. In fact, I have only read about Taiping and Wu Sansi being heavily engaged in fierce political battles for influences over the court. The court probably could not survive a day without them aggressively attacking each other with words.

Hmm, I have always thought the idea of children taking after their mother’s surname was considered as taboo in ancient China since it was a male dominated society. Zhongzong and Ruizong did take after their mother’s surname for a while, but there was certainly no “natural feeling” to it.

Regardless, Wu Zetian passed the throne back to her 3rd son, knowing that he would definitely revert to the Tang Dynasty after succeeding her. She also did not seem to have contemplated greatly over how to preserve her dynasty. So, I surmise her bloodline was still more important than her kingdom.

I always knew Taiping did not have very many good qualities; however, I had no idea she did many negative things to the commoners. Based on what you are saying, I completely agree that she would make a terrible Emperor.

I find it ironic that Wu Zetian would say “Taiping took after me the most” since Taiping had many negative qualities, would not it be the same as Wu Zetian admitting she also had some major flaws?

This brings me to another question. If Taiping was not of a decent character, then why was she beloved by her parents and favored by her brothers? Was it mostly because she was the youngest of her siblings? This part does not make sense to me.

By the way, I am, by no means, claiming that all the materials I have read were accurate since all the sources I have read were translated from Chinese. That is why I am just here to learn.

[Rong Qin Wang]

There were no direct evidence of Wu Zetian killed her sons or daughter. From what I read, there were other possibilities. For the baby daughter, I guessed infant's sudden death syndrome. For her first son, I think the idea of his falling ill and die was a definitely possibility. Many people speculated he was poisoned by Wu Zetian because they did not like her. The second son was forced to kill himself by his jailor. Many people, again, thought it was on Wu's order, but I thought it was possibly the jailor's own action. The jailor might have gotten the wrong idea from the rumors regarding Wu's first son and thought to please Wu. He was punished afterwards.

Regarding the weapons from the 2nd son, well, they only found a few hundred armors, and he was the crown prince after all. Shouldn't he have guards and guards had armors? It sounded bad, but I really thought the armors were planted, and the accusation was ridiculous. The problem was that Li Xian2 (the second son) had probably killed Wu Zetian's favorite daoist priest and rumored lover 明崇儼 Ming ChungYan, and Wu was angry at him. I thought Wu maybe feeling he was a bit of a problem, so she exiled him to cool it. I do not think she wanted him dead.

Wu Zetian did kill her daughters-in-law, her grandson, granddaughter, and grandson-in-law for criticizing her in private, and it was recorded in history because they were actual executions not secret poisons and such. I always feel sorry for her grandchildren who died because they were very young (only teenagers) and they died horribly (beaten to death).

Zunjing de Fireball,

You are absolutely right; there were no substantial evidences stating that Wu Zetian actually killed her children. However, since she was a ruthless lady, who was responsible for many political purges, she definitely does not get the benefit of the doubt. Until new evidences are found, you have already stated all the possibilities for the deaths of Wu Zetian’s children.

I initially did not evaluate Wu Zetian so negatively as she was a decent ruler. However, as I go much deeper in the studies of Confucius, I found Wu Zetian to be absolutely intolerable as she completely exceeded her boundaries. She was such a hypocrite for not practicing what she was preaching most of the time! With this in mind, I not only feel sorry for her grandchildren, but all her “relatives” in general. What a horrible mother and terrible wife!

Oh, while talking about Wu Zetian’s daughter-in-law, I have another question. Why did not Wu Zetian get rid of Empress Wei, Zhongzong’s wife, when it was apparent that she had the desire to follow the footsteps of her mother-in-law? Of course, Wu Zetian did not think very highly of Zhongzong, but she did pass the throne back to him, so I would think that she would have at least wanted him to be safe? Also, I don’t think Empress Wei was smart enough to conceal her ambitions in front of Wu Zetian. Besides, Wu Zetian was capable enough to not be so oblivious to Empress Wei’s real intentions.

Anyway, I would really appreciate any answers, questions, or comments.

Xie Xie,

[fireball]

Zunjing de Rong Qin Wang,

Nice to meet you too. You have such good manners, and I feel I am like a totally rude barbarian if I don't do "Zunjing de" also. Thank you for reminding me my manners. Here are some information for you.

Of course, Tang Zhongzong and Tang Ruizong were deadly afraid of their mother. Even if there were no rumors that she was involved in the deaths of their two elder brothers, her ferocious nature and lack of femininity would have least likely brought mother and sons closer together. Yes, Wu Zetian’s two older sons were pretty competent princes; hence, it was too bad neither of them made it to the throne since they would have made fine Emperors. However, I don’t think Zhongzong and Ruizong behaved as weak as possible to escape their mother’s suspicions since I believe they were plain weak by nature. Genetically speaking, I don’t see how a strong woman like Wu Zetian can produce those two very weak sons. Perhaps I did not think of the factor of taking after their father, the very incompetent Tang Gaozong?

I am not sure whether the two elder princes would have made good emperors because they also had their faults. One was sickly and probably a homosexual - not that gays are bad, but it may cause a problem for succession later. The sickly son was also a good scholars, but may be too good a scholar to be a good politician. The other son was too unflexible. Again, he may be a bad politician also. The way he killed his mother's lover without thinking told us of his carelessness. The two younger sons might be as weak as their father because they did show it after Wu's death. The children may inherit a mother's or a father's genes, so it was not impossible.

Furthermore, Wu was ruling the country with her husband (and doing the most actual ruling), so I don't think she pay too much attention to her children. Her children grew up fairly spoiled in general. The eldest two were favored by their father, and Tang Gaozong paid a lot of attention to them, so they turned out OK. The younger ones including Taiping grew up when Tang Gaozong's high blood pressure got worse (his symptoms were the one who had high blood pressure). Therefore, they did not turn out as good, especially Taiping.

Due to the fact that Princess Taiping was a daugher and would not have any political responsibilities, I doubt she had any proper "princely" education, or anyone even cared that she did. For a Chinese prince, if he did something wrong, others would definitely come out and tell him don't do it. For a favored Chinese princess in Tang dynasty, I don't think too many people would dare or remember to jump out to tell her that she was doing something wrong. Primarily, the women were more independent and allowed more freedom in Tang's royal family due to their Turkish blood. One of Tang Gaozong's aunts was actually a female general and had a group of female soldiers who participated in the battles that established Tang dynasty, and one of the Chinese military gate/fortress was named after her to this day. Therefore, the Tang princess' actions were not as restricted as princess in other dynasties. Consequently, Princess Taiping was out of control --Though, she was a little better than Tang Zhongzong's daughter, Princess Anle, who actually poisoned her father with her mother. I think the fact that Wu Zetian was more capable than Empress Wei, so Princess Taiping was more sensible than Princess Anle. I believe both genetic and the examples of their mothers were at work here.

Honestly, I have not read too many sources regarding Princess Taiping. In fact, I have failed to find a real biography on her in Vietnamese or English. Hence, all I know about Taiping would be some mentions of her from articles on her parents and brothers. Therefore, I would really appreciate any information you can give about this princess.

I initially thought Wu Zetian and Princess Taiping were very close to each other; however, some modern sources I have read stated otherwise since the relationship between them was only a little less intense than of Wu Zetian and her sons’ because of the power struggles between the Li and Wu families, of which the mother and daughter each represented.

Well, of course, Taiping did not speak up for the Li family when her mother was trying to kill them since she, like her brothers, were afraid to do anything against their mother’s wishes even though she was probably the favorite. However, some sources did indicate that Taiping did loosely collaborate with Di Renjie by repeatedly questioning her mother about how nephews would not have ritual offerings for their aunt. Thus, she indirectly lobbied the way for her 3rd brother to be reinstated as the Crown Prince.

Oh no, I have never read any accounts about Taiping being very close to her Wu cousins and having a few of them as her lovers. In fact, I have only read about Taiping and Wu Sansi being heavily engaged in fierce political battles for influences over the court. The court probably could not survive a day without them aggressively attacking each other with words.

For a daughter of a strong woman, there will always be tension and power struggles. From what I read, both of them were strong willed and determined to get what they want. We all knew from previous postings of this and the other threads that Wu Zetian was this way. And Princess Taiping showed her true nature when she was a teenager (I think she was between 14-16, about the time for marriage). She went to the formal court of her parents and requested in public that she wanted to have a husband. Not too many Chinese Princess had done that. Over all, Princess Taiping was like her mother in her determinations. As she grew older, what she wanted would sometimes conflict with what her mother wanted. Wu Zetian starved her first husband to death in jail because his brother was involved with rebels. They were married for 7 years, and she was pregananted with his 4th child. This was the first time she learned of her mother's ruthlessness close up and personal. To comfort Princess Taiping, Wu Zetian increased her Princess' 封户 (household that belonged to a noble) to 1200 when the usual rules for a Tang Princess was 350. I think Princess Taiping became more aware of her mother's power afterwards. I believe that this was the reason why she picked handsome young men for her mother's harem in order to please her mother.

Wu Zetian ruled for a long time (approaching 50 years), and all her children and newphews were trying to get the most power for themselves and not get killed. The political intrigues and alliances were very complexed. I am not sure about the facts that Princess Taiping had worked with Di Renjie for her brothers. It was a possibility, because she did worked with her nephew (later Tang Xuanzong) in helping her brother Tang Zhongzong and Tang Ruizong to gain back the throne. You have to remember, there were no permanent friends or enemies in politics. In the later years of Wu Zetian, Princess Taiping as well as everyone else tried to walk a tight rope between Wu and Li families. Princess Wu's 2nd husband, a Wu cousin, was fairly reserved and not very political. Since she had a lot of lovers in her 2nd marriage, I don't think she loved her 2nd husband very much. Therefore, I think she probably felt that brothers were closer than husband or cousins. Therefore, she went with the Li family in the end.

p.s. Wu Sansi was a j*** anyway. I remember he was not a likable character. It might be my Chinese novel speaking here, but I don't quite like him. He was one of the Wu cousins who tried to become the crown prince. He and Princess Taiping had a lot of history together. I remember something about they were lovers at one time. I think politics drew them apart. The fact that Wu Sansi later became Empress Wei's lover probably did not help their relationship.

Hmm, I have always thought the idea of children taking after their mother’s surname was considered as taboo in ancient China since it was a male dominated society. Zhongzong and Ruizong did take after their mother’s surname for a while, but there was certainly no “natural feeling” to it.

Regardless, Wu Zetian passed the throne back to her 3rd son, knowing that he would definitely revert to the Tang Dynasty after succeeding her. She also did not seem to have contemplated greatly over how to preserve her dynasty. So, I surmise her bloodline was still more important than her kingdom.

I agree with your accessment there.

I find it ironic that Wu Zetian would say “Taiping took after me the most” since Taiping had many negative qualities, would not it be the same as Wu Zetian admitting she also had some major flaws?

This brings me to another question. If Taiping was not of a decent character, then why was she beloved by her parents and favored by her brothers? Was it mostly because she was the youngest of her siblings? This part does not make sense to me.

Princess Taiping was supposed to be looking like Wu Zetian, and her personality was very close to Wu also -- like I have mentioned before. I think that was why Wu recognized all her own flaws showed up in Princess Taiping more dramatically and fatally -- Princess Taiping was spoiled rotten and did not have the kind of ruthless training like Wu. Therefore, Wu decided not to make Taiping a crown princess.

She was favored because she looked like her mother, and her father did love her mother deeply (Otherwise, he wouldn't be making her into a join-ruler.) She was also the youngest child and the only daughter of Wu-- Remember the baby girl Wu Zetian had lost! Taiping was the replacement.

By the way, I am, by no means, claiming that all the materials I have read were accurate since all the sources I have read were translated from Chinese. That is why I am just here to learn.

I am also not sure all I read was accurate. That was the basis of History. Nobody knew what really happened, and we could only make the best educational guesses.

Please forgive my English. I know I sometimes made awkward statements, and my plurals and tenses are generally terrible. I do try though.


Thank you!

Edited by fireball, 27 November 2007 - 07:55 AM.

[fireball]

You are absolutely right; there were no substantial evidences stating that Wu Zetian actually killed her children. However, since she was a ruthless lady, who was responsible for many political purges, she definitely does not get the benefit of the doubt. Until new evidences are found, you have already stated all the possibilities for the deaths of Wu Zetian’s children.

Zunjing de Rong Qin Wang,

I feel everyone deserves a benefit of doubt. She was ruthless because she had a bad life from the start. She was a daughter of the concubine, and her father was dead when she was young. Her elder brothers and their mother treated her and her mother very bad. i think she learned very young that she needed to be ruthless in order to gain what she wanted. She came into the harem at the age of 14 -- in Chinese years, she was actually 13 years old. She had to face court intrigues after that. Many times, she could be killed also. I will say she had a very interesting life and was a very complex person.

I initially did not evaluate Wu Zetian so negatively as she was a decent ruler. However, as I go much deeper in the studies of Confucius, I found Wu Zetian to be absolutely intolerable as she completely exceeded her boundaries. She was such a hypocrite for not practicing what she was preaching most of the time! With this in mind, I not only feel sorry for her grandchildren, but all her “relatives” in general. What a horrible mother and terrible wife!

Well, she certainly exceeded the boundaries of Confucius rules. Her actions did not match what she practice, i.e. Buddhism. She was a pretty bad mother for sure, but she was not so bad a wife. Tang Gaozong was lazy and had symptoms of high blood pressure. He had severe headaches and couldn't see sometimes. He left the ruling of the Empire for Wu Zetian to do. It wasn't Wu's fault or necessarily ambition to do it. Also, her left over sons were weak and incapable of ruling an empire, so she felt she must take over. It was just the ways she did it. I think she knew she went over board with the evil judges. Therefore, she got rid of them quickly after she stablized her power base. She also did not allow her lovers to interfere with the court. Sometimes, I wonder whether she regretting killing her grandchildren and her daughters-in-law? I think her eventual returning the throne back to Li family was her appologies to her children and her husband. I am a romantic. Ha ha!

Oh, while talking about Wu Zetian’s daughter-in-law, I have another question. Why did not Wu Zetian get rid of Empress Wei, Zhongzong’s wife, when it was apparent that she had the desire to follow the footsteps of her mother-in-law? Of course, Wu Zetian did not think very highly of Zhongzong, but she did pass the throne back to him, so I would think that she would have at least wanted him to be safe? Also, I don’t think Empress Wei was smart enough to conceal her ambitions in front of Wu Zetian. Besides, Wu Zetian was capable enough to not be so oblivious to Empress Wei’s real intentions.

Actually, Tang Zhongzong lost his throne precisely because Wu tried to curb Empress Wei's ambition. In the first few months of Zhongzong's reign the first time, he raised the postitions of Empress Wei's family members to ridiculously high level regardless of their abilities. Her family members were also very corrupt and wasted no time to start getting money andn such. In addition, Zhongzong was not paying attention to the normal business of the court, just heaping honors on Empress Wei and her family members. Therefore, Wu Zetian came back to court and took the throne away from Zhongzong. Aftwards, Empress Wei was very careful, and Wu Zetian did not have cause to kill her. Empress Wei became more corrupt after Wu had lost her power and was very sick and dying, so Wu never had a chance to kill Empress Wei at the end.

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de Rong Qin Wang,

Nice to meet you too. You have such good manners, and I feel I am like a totally rude barbarian if I don't do "Zunjing de" also. Thank you for reminding me my manners. Here are some information for you.




I am not sure whether the two elder princes would have made good emperors because they also had their faults. One was sickly and probably a homosexual - not that gays are bad, but it may cause a problem for succession later. The sickly son was also a good scholars, but may be too good a scholar to be a good politician. The other son was too unflexible. Again, he may be a bad politician also. The way he killed his mother's lover without thinking told us of his carelessness. The two younger sons might be as weak as their father because they did show it after Wu's death. The children may inherit a mother's or a father's genes, so it was not impossible.

Furthermore, Wu was ruling the country with her husband (and doing the most actual ruling), so I don't think she pay too much attention to her children. Her children grew up fairly spoiled in general. The eldest two were favored by their father, and Tang Gaozong paid a lot of attention to them, so they turned out OK. The younger ones including Taiping grew up when Tang Gaozong's high blood pressure got worse (his symptoms were the one who had high blood pressure). Therefore, they did not turn out as good, especially Taiping.

Due to the fact that Princess Taiping was a daugher and would not have any political responsibilities, I doubt she had any proper "princely" education, or anyone even cared that she did. For a Chinese prince, if he did something wrong, others would definitely come out and tell him don't do it. For a favored Chinese princess in Tang dynasty, I don't think too many people would dare or remember to jump out to tell her that she was doing something wrong. Primarily, the women were more independent and allowed more freedom in Tang's royal family due to their Turkish blood. One of Tang Gaozong's aunts was actually a female general and had a group of female soldiers who participated in the battles that established Tang dynasty, and one of the Chinese military gate/fortress was named after her to this day. Therefore, the Tang princess' actions were not as restricted as princess in other dynasties. Consequently, Princess Taiping was out of control --Though, she was a little better than Tang Zhongzong's daughter, Princess Anle, who actually poisoned her father with her mother. I think the fact that Wu Zetian was more capable than Empress Wei, so Princess Taiping was more sensible than Princess Anle. I believe both genetic and the examples of their mothers were at work here.




For a daughter of a strong woman, there will always be tension and power struggles. From what I read, both of them were strong willed and determined to get what they want. We all knew from previous postings of this and the other threads that Wu Zetian was this way. And Princess Taiping showed her true nature when she was a teenager (I think she was between 14-16, about the time for marriage). She went to the formal court of her parents and requested in public that she wanted to have a husband. Not too many Chinese Princess had done that. Over all, Princess Taiping was like her mother in her determinations. As she grew older, what she wanted would sometimes conflict with what her mother wanted. Wu Zetian starved her first husband to death in jail because his brother was involved with rebels. They were married for 7 years, and she was pregananted with his 4th child. This was the first time she learned of her mother's rughlessness close up and personal. To comfort Princess Taiping, Wu Zetian increased her Princess' 封户 (household that belonged to a noble) to 1200 when the usual rules for a Tang Princess was 350. I think Princess Taiping became more aware of her mother's power afterwards. I believe that this was the reason why she picked handsome young men for her mother's harem in order to please her mother.

Wu Zetian ruled for a long time (approaching 50 years), and all her children and newphews were trying to get the most power for themselves and not get killed. The political intrigues and alliances were very complexed. I am not sure about the facts that Princess Taiping had worked with Di Renjie for her brothers. It was a possibility, because she did worked with her nephew (later Tang Xuanzong) in helping her brother Tang Zhongzong and Tang Ruizong to gain back the throne. You have to remember, there were no permanent friends or enemies in politics. In the later years of Wu Zetian, Princess Taiping as well as everyone else tried to walk a tight rope between Wu and Li families. Princess Wu's 2nd husband, a Wu cousin, was fairly reserved and not very political. Since she had a lot of lovers in her 2nd marriage, I don't think she loved her 2nd husband very much. Therefore, I think she probably felt that brothers were closer than husband or cousins. Therefore, she went with the Li family in the end.

p.s. Wu Sansi was a j*** anyway. I remember he was not a likable character. It might be my Chinese novel speaking here, but I don't quite like him. He was one of the Wu cousins who tried to become the crown prince. He and Princess Taiping had a lot of history together. I remember something about they were lovers at one time. I think politics drew them apart. The fact that Wu Sansi later became Empress Wei's lover probably did not help their relationship.



I agree with your accessment there.




Princess Taiping was supposed to be looking like Wu Zetian, and her personality was very close to Wu also -- like I have mentioned before. I think that was why Wu recognized all her own flaws showed up in Princess Taiping more dramatically and fatally -- Princess Taiping was spoiled rotten and did not have the kind of ruthless training like Wu. Therefore, Wu decided not to make Taiping a crown princess.

She was favored because she looked like her mother, and her father did love her mother deeply (Otherwise, he wouldn't be making her into a join-ruler.) She was also the youngest child and the only daughter of Wu-- Remember the baby girl Wu Zetian had lost! Taiping was the replacement.




I am also not sure all I read was accurate. That was the basis of History. Nobody knew what really happened, and we could only make the best educational guesses.

Please forgive my English. I know I sometimes made awkward statements, and my plurals and tenses are generally terrible. I do try though.


Thank you!

Zunjing de Fireball,

No, please don’t ever think that you are a rude barbarian since it is just me going overboard with being too polite. Hehehe!

Hmm, a homosexual can prove to be detrimental to the empire due to succession crises. Han Aidi served as a perfect example of how bad the situations could be. However, where did you get the idea that Li Hong was probably homosexual? I have never read anything of this nature. Perhaps you or others think he might be homosexual because he still had no children when he died at the age of 23?

That is right, Li Hong was a devoted Confucius scholar, who would get depress over minor things that went wrong. He definitely seems too kind to be an effective politician. In fact, Wu Zetian commented a couple of the times that Li Hong possessed the “virtues of women,” which was strictly contrast to his mother, who was as strong-will as men.

Regarding Li Xian, I often times felt that he was stupid and stubborn. I agree that he should be very wary towards his mother, however, openly criticizing her would only further deteriorate their relationship. Even though he was praised for having good decisions in court affairs, I felt that he showed poor judgments when dealing with affairs involving his mother.

That is right; Wu Zetian was such an assertive woman that I can only find very little feminine qualities of hers. She would rather rule the country instead of raising her own children. Not a lot of woman were willing to do that. On the contrary, Gaozong would rather spend time with his children than paying attention to state affairs. What a role reverse. Hehehe!

The younger sons were also generally much weaker than their two elder brothers by nature.

Of course, there was no good reason for Taiping to receive a princely education since she was a daughter. However, should not people still care about what she did if she was breaking the laws? It is true that most princesses were ignored in history as they did not have much political influences; nevertheless, would not a princess receive the same punishment as a prince if she broke the laws? If I am understanding this correctly, then you are saying a favored Tang princess would get away with a lot of things that princes would not normally be able to?

Yes, Tang Dynasty was perhaps the most open of all imperial dynasties due to the Tang’s royalties’ partial Turkish blood. Because women were treated pretty well in the Tang Dynasty, it is not surprising to see the Tang being the only dynasty to have a female Emperor.

That is right; Gaozong’s aunt, Princess Ping Yang, was actually a general, who made numerous contributions to the founding of Tang Dynasty. Even though many legends about her feats were fictional, who was actually a real historical figure. Like other princesses, she was also very beloved by her father.

Well, even though Tang princesses generally had more freedom than other princesses, they still should not be left out of control. In this case, it was usually the Emperors’ fault for not teaching their daughters proper manners.

You are right; there are only two ways children with a strong mother can turn out. Some would grow up to be pretty weak because they are so used to comply to their mother’s wishes. On the other hand, they might grow up to be as strong as their mother to meet her expectations.

That is right; the incident of requesting a husband in public certainly indicated Taiping did not behave very traditionally. Of course, not a lot of princesses would have the courage or even the thought of doing something remotely similar.

Regarding starving Taiping’s first husband to death, I am not sure if Wu Zetian felt like she was doing something wrong since she probably felt her responsibilities to the state were greater than that of a mother. At least, she comforted her daughter afterward. She did not do the same thing with her sons when she executed their wives. In fact, her sons were pretty lucky to have escaped her purges.

Of course, there are no permanent friends or enemies in the political world. However, I would at least think people would show some compassion and not put their friends-turn-enemies to death because they were once their friends, especially since some of them are their relatives as well.

Princess Taiping had very good reasons to side with the Li family since she technically belonged to her father’s lineage. Even if she were to inherit the throne from her mother, she would still identify herself as a Li as well as needing the support from the Li family to back her up.

I surmise a person’s character is not that important when it comes to family love. One would not automatically hate his/her relatives just because they don’t have a lot of good qualities.

I guess having a similar personality would naturally bring a mother and daughter closer together whether those qualities being good or bad. Also, a mother would probably love her daughter even more for inheriting her bad traits because of guilt.

Yeah, unlike most Emperors, Gaozong actually wanted to have a daughter, who would greatly resemble his beloved wife, Wu Zetian. I think this was a very rare situation when it was not so bad to be a princess. Also, after giving birth to four sons, I think Wu Zetian’s position was secured enough for her to have a daughter.

By the way, I just read an online article claiming that Princess Taiping collaborated closely with Zhang Gian Zhi to overthrow her mother in order to restore the Tang Dynasty. This eventually led to the coup dethroning Wu Zetian when she was very ill.

Have you read about this account in actual history?

Please don’t worry about your English; since we are discussing Chinese history here, the content of your posts is so much more important than the syntaxes and dictions themselves! Also, please feel free to be as creative as possible!

Xie Xie,

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de Rong Qin Wang,

I feel everyone deserves a benefit of doubt. She was ruthless because she had a bad life from the start. She was a daughter of the concubine, and her father was dead when she was young. Her elder brothers and their mother treated her and her mother very bad. i think she learned very young that she needed to be ruthless in order to gain what she wanted. She came into the harem at the age of 14 -- in Chinese years, she was actually 13 years old. She had to face court intrigues after that. Many times, she could be killed also. I will say she had a very interesting life and was a very complex person.




Well, she certainly exceeded the boundaries of Confucius rules. Her actions did not match what she practice, i.e. Buddhism. She was a pretty bad mother for sure, but she was not so bad a wife. Tang Gaozong was lazy and had symptoms of high blood pressure. He had severe headaches and couldn't see sometimes. He left the ruling of the Empire for Wu Zetian to do. It wasn't Wu's fault or necessarily ambition to do it. Also, her left over sons were weak and incapable of ruling an empire, so she felt she must take over. It was just the ways she did it. I think she knew she went over board with the evil judges. Therefore, she got rid of them quickly after she stablized her power base. She also did not allow her lovers to interfere with the court. Sometimes, I wonder whether she regretting killing her grandchildren and her daughters-in-law? I think her eventual returning the throne back to Li family was her appologies to her children and her husband. I am a romantic. Ha ha!





Actually, Tang Zhongzong lost his throne precisely because Wu tried to curb Empress Wei's ambition. In the first few months of Zhongzong's reign the first time, he raised the postitions of Empress Wei's family members to ridiculously high level regardless of their abilities. Her family members were also very corrupt and wasted no time to start getting money andn such. In addition, Zhongzong was not paying attention to the normal business of the court, just heaping honors on Empress Wei and her family members. Therefore, Wu Zetian came back to court and took the throne away from Zhongzong. Aftwards, Empress Wei was very careful, and Wu Zetian did not have cause to kill her. Empress Wei became more corrupt after Wu had lost her power and was very sick and dying, so Wu never had a chance to kill Empress Wei at the end.

Zunjing de Fireball,

Well, even though I don’t think Wu Zetian deserves the benefit of the doubt, I won’t condemn her with any crimes unless I have substantial evidences. Of course, Wu Zetian had an interesting life and was a complex person; otherwise, we would not be having this discussion right now.

In actuality, Wu Zetian was probably just living in the wrong place. Had she lived in nomadic tribes, she would not be “forced” to comply the Confucian law of not interfering in state affairs. Instead, she would probably be recognized for her talents and praised for her accomplishments.

Regarding Buddhism, I cannot see how this religion would fit in with the precarious nature of politics. Actually, political leaders were more or less non-religious. I think the state religions were for the commoners/officers rather than for the leaders themselves to practice.

I do agree that Wu Zetian was probably not as power-hungry as Confucian scholars have indicated in numerous accounts. Like you said, she had a sickly husband and weak/incompetent sons, all of whom could not govern effectively.

A few articles I have read, written by modern historians, stated that Wu Zetian felt that ministers would take advantage of a weak Emperor to seize power, and possibly harming the Emperor as well. Hence, she had to take over power to ensure peace for the commoners and protection for her incompetent sons.

However, this seems too idealistic for me to believe since was not Wu Zetian also harming her sons?

Deep down, Wu Zetian would love to install righteous ministers like Di Renjie; however, this was very least likely to have happened since no Confucian scholars would serve under a woman! Therefore, she had to use greedy ministers, who could easily be bribed with money or power, to assist her to the throne. Nevertheless, because these ministers were so corrupted she had to get rid of them very quickly afterward, or else she would be overthrown herself.

Of the four royal princes, Zhongzong was the most incompetent! He was more of an idiot in the sense of being pretty oblivious to virtually everything around him. That was why he ended up dying at the hands of the two women he loved the most, Empress Wei and Princess Anle.

In comparison, even though Ruizong was weaker, he was much wiser. Other than being unfit to rule, he did not have any other negative qualities, and a lot of his decisions were praised by both the officials and the commoners. Each of the time he gave up power was for a good cause and to the right person. He abdicated in favor of his more competent mother in 690. He renounced his position as the Crown Prince in favor of his more legitimate brother in 698. Finally, he abdicated for the second time in favor of his more brilliant son in 712.

Yes, I know during his first reign, Zhongzong was known to have promoted members of the Wei family to high court positions regardless of their talents. In fact, he was famous for telling his prime minister that nobody can stop him even if he wished to give his father-in-law half the empire because he was the Emperor. This was the quote Wu Zetian used to depose Zhongzong.

Do you think this was a legitimate excuse?

When Wu Zetian reinstated Zhongzong as the Crown Prince in 698, she should have known that when he inherit the throne again, he would still be under the influence of his wife; therefore, she should have thought of a way to get rid of this dangerous daughter-in-law and find another virtuous wife for her son.

You have stated that Wu Zetian did not have a good reason to kill Empress Wei, but was not Wu Zetian pretty good at getting people implicated in crimes they might have not necessarily committed? I don’t think it was that hard to find a decent excuse.

[fireball]

Hmm, a homosexual can prove to be detrimental to the empire due to succession crises. Han Aidi served as a perfect example of how bad the situations could be. However, where did you get the idea that Li Hong was probably homosexual? I have never read anything of this nature. Perhaps you or others think he might be homosexual because he still had no children when he died at the age of 23?

Zunjing de Rong Qin Wang,

Li Hong seemed to have a male servant who was very close to him. This guy was so close to him that Wu Zetian noticed it. I think Wu Zetian eventually killed the servant. I read this in several sources and it was also in one of my favorite TV series about Wu Zetian made in China, Da4 Ming2 Gong Zi2. Therefore, I mentioned that he might be a gay -- there were rumors of that anyway.

Of course, there was no good reason for Taiping to receive a princely education since she was a daughter. However, should not people still care about what she did if she was breaking the laws? It is true that most princesses were ignored in history as they did not have much political influences; nevertheless, would not a princess receive the same punishment as a prince if she broke the laws? If I am understanding this correctly, then you are saying a favored Tang princess would get away with a lot of things that princes would not normally be able to?

...

Well, even though Tang princesses generally had more freedom than other princesses, they still should not be left out of control. In this case, it was usually the Emperors’ fault for not teaching their daughters proper manners.

...

Regarding starving Taiping’s first husband to death, I am not sure if Wu Zetian felt like she was doing something wrong since she probably felt her responsibilities to the state were greater than that of a mother. At least, she comforted her daughter afterward. She did not do the same thing with her sons when she executed their wives. In fact, her sons were pretty lucky to have escaped her purges.

I think Tang Gao Zong and Tang Zhong Zong were two very kind hearted fathers, and they truly loved their daughters. They also spoiled them rotten! When the first few people came to complain about these two princesses' bad behaviors, their parents never punished them. Afterwards, the princesses probably punished/killed the big mouths. Soon, the others would know not to cross the two princesses. It was all due to their parents' attitudes. Both sets of parents pretty much turned the blind eyes on those two princesses.

I think Wu Zetian knew she needed to kill her son-in-law for the political reason. However, I think first beaten him up with the whips and then letting him starve to death in the jail was a little bit too cruel an action for a mother-in-law towards the father of her grandchildren and with one grandchild to come -- and during the time of her daughter's pregnancy, no less!!! I think she knew she really went overboard on that account. About her sons' wives, they never found out what happened to them. Even after her sons and grandson became the Emperors, they couldn't find any information about what happened. Eventually, this incident was buried under yet another embarrassing event caused by Wu Zetian, their mother and grandmother.

About Empress Wei, I think Wu Zetian had killed enough of her children's spouses by that time. In addition, Empress Wei was Zhong Zong's primary wife, and she had certain rights, etc. So... Wu Zetian did not kill her nor tried to make up a false accusation to kill her. I think Empress Wei showed Wu Zetian that Wei was a pretty stupid woman and would present no real political threat to Wu herself. Regarding the threat Wei would present to Wu's son Zhong Zong, I think Wu was quite given up on Zhong Zong's personality and decided that he could lie in the bed he had made for himself. Besides, there were her 4th son and a very capable grandson from this 4th son. I think Wu knew that Empress Wei would never get hold of the throne for long, and the throne would belong to a capable descendent of Wu's eventually. Wu was getting very old (in her 70's), and she did not want to spend too much more energy on her stupid and weak son and that stupid woman he married (IMO).

Of course, there are no permanent friends or enemies in the political world. However, I would at least think people would show some compassion and not put their friends-turn-enemies to death because they were once their friends, especially since some of them are their relatives as well.

In the time of Wu's reign (especially when she was the Emperor), the court battles were severe and with very extremely severe consequences. Whole families got killed. Friends or causual associates were killed by simple association alone. By the time of the later part of Wu's reign, the succession battles were even worse. We are talking about many people had blood debts with many other people. If one group won, the other group and all their family members would be killed. Friendship and blood relationship and marriage relationship would be totally overlooked in this sorts of situations. Think of Cultural Revolution in modern day China. Think of the most bloody time during the French Revolution or Russia's Stalin's era. You would get the picture.

By the way, I just read an online article claiming that Princess Taiping collaborated closely with Zhang Gian Zhi to overthrow her mother in order to restore the Tang Dynasty. This eventually led to the coup dethroning Wu Zetian when she was very ill.

Have you read about this account in actual history?

It's possible. I think I heard something like that. Taiping turned her back on her mother when she thought her mother's power was slipping. Her mother was dying anyway, so she needed to look for her own good.

I agree with alll your other points. I think you got very good analyzing skills for a historian.

[fireball]

Regarding Buddhism, I cannot see how this religion would fit in with the precarious nature of politics. Actually, political leaders were more or less non-religious. I think the state religions were for the commoners/officers rather than for the leaders themselves to practice.

Zunjing de Rong Qin Wang,

I mentioned religion because Wu Zetian made a big point on Buddhism. She actually used Buddhism to show that she was heaven's choice for the throne of China! She really did a lot of things to promote Buddhism. I think that was because one of her ealier lovers was installed as a Buddhist monk, and monks and Daoist priests could get into the palace (the harem) without too much problems and gossips. Wu's first lover (rumored) was a Daoist priest, and that was when her husband, Gao Zong was still alive!

I do agree that Wu Zetian was probably not as power-hungry as Confucian scholars have indicated in numerous accounts. Like you said, she had a sickly husband and weak/incompetent sons, all of whom could not govern effectively.

A few articles I have read, written by modern historians, stated that Wu Zetian felt that ministers would take advantage of a weak Emperor to seize power, and possibly harming the Emperor as well. Hence, she had to take over power to ensure peace for the commoners and protection for her incompetent sons.

However, this seems too idealistic for me to believe since was not Wu Zetian also harming her sons?

Actually, in Wu's mind, she was not harming her sons. She believed she was protecting them and their legacies of the Tang Empire. I know this because my mom is a very strong willed woman like Wu, and she did things to both me and my brother that were harmful, but I know that she believed that she was protecting us. What could you do?

Yes, I know during his first reign, Zhongzong was known to have promoted members of the Wei family to high court positions regardless of their talents. In fact, he was famous for telling his prime minister that nobody can stop him even if he wished to give his father-in-law half the empire because he was the Emperor. This was the quote Wu Zetian used to depose Zhongzong.

Do you think this was a legitimate excuse?

It was a half legitimate excuse. I think the same situations also happened in Zhou dynasty and twice in the Han dynasty. However, power determined what was right and legitimate. Wu had the power, and Zhong Zong didn't. Therefore, whatever excuses Wu used were all legitimate and right! (Please note, I am being sarcastic here! Sometimes, there are people who would not quite get my sense of humor. )

When Wu Zetian reinstated Zhongzong as the Crown Prince in 698, she should have known that when he inherit the throne again, he would still be under the influence of his wife; therefore, she should have thought of a way to get rid of this dangerous daughter-in-law and find another virtuous wife for her son.

You have stated that Wu Zetian did not have a good reason to kill Empress Wei, but was not Wu Zetian pretty good at getting people implicated in crimes they might have not necessarily committed? I don’t think it was that hard to find a decent excuse.

I answered this one in my previous post just before this one.