47 replies to this topic

[snowybeagle]

Okinawan culture is mostly assimilated with the Japanese after its defeat by the hands of the Satsuma.

Never underestimate what revivals of nationalism or ancient traditions/ways could do.

History is replete with examples of conquered/annexed people breaking off to get independence, using such pretexts.

Confirmed
Ireland.
Scandanavia - Finland, Norway.
Baltic states - Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia
Former USSR - Ukraine (once the heartlands of the Russians, longer than Ryuku/Okiwana had been Japanese)
East Timor
Vietnam
Now defunct Turkish Empire - Greece, Albania, Israel etc, also longer than Okinawa had been Japanese

Not confirmed
Tibet
Taiwan
Hawaii
Wales
Scotland
Basque
Catalonia

Yes, present day Okinawa is very much integrated into Japanese culture, but it still retains its distinctiveness and no one can tell what will happen.

If it happens in the future, scholars and commentators would suddenly point to various aspects from the past (including today) as indicators that the causes for independence had been there all these while.

[snowybeagle]

not worth doing so for some idea of cultural independance that no one have a shred of anymore.

I'm pointing out historical examples of your notion that "cultural assimilation" had been misjudged.

The TI are certainly not doing it for cultural independence, nor did many other movements necessarily do it for cultural independence as the sole reason though it's one of the most useful tools they included.

I suppose if you were ever proven wrong in the future, you'd choose to remain Japanese and be swearing you never saw it coming.

I'm not saying it will necessarily happen.
Just saying it's one of those "famous last words" ...

Edited by snowybeagle, 11 June 2005 - 10:44 AM.

[hira]

most okinawan youths don't speak any okinawan today. They're quite proud of being japanese, the 2nd economic power, rather than yet another archipelago of tropical pacific islands.

[snowybeagle]

Oh ... and I thought the Utari still existed ...

[MengTzu]

Confirmed
Ireland.
Scandanavia - Finland, Norway.
Baltic states - Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia
Former USSR - Ukraine (once the heartlands of the Russians, longer than Ryuku/Okiwana had been Japanese)
East Timor
Vietnam
Now defunct Turkish Empire - Greece, Albania, Israel etc, also longer than Okinawa had been Japanese

Not confirmed
Tibet
Taiwan
Hawaii
Wales
Scotland
Basque
Catalonia

Please take away Xizang, Taiwan and Hawaii....they are non negotiable in
Independent from China or USA fullstop!! not a chance!! Sorry.

USC

The funny thing is that no matter how atrocious the acts of the US against Hawaiians were when it was taking over Hawaii, Hawaiians aren't thinking about independence. Why? Cuz the US is rich, powerful, and it's simply cool to be a part of a great Western nation. That's why instead of fighting over useless arguments about history and claims of land, China can have a better chance of securing its lands by 1) becoming a great economic and political power in the world, and 2) make ethnics like Tibetans happy and proud to be Chinese. They should invent a sports game while they are at it: Hawaiians love American football. I'm not making fun of Hawaiians and implying that they are brainwashed by sport -- I love American football myself -- the reality is that things like entertainment make people happy. Meng Tzi said to a king: to enjoy music by yourself is not as good as enjoying music with the people. Spend more time improving their well-being (including their emotional wellfare, which involves such things as entertainment.) Spend more time improving the economics of Tibetans, their political representation, the preservation of their culture, instead of spending time supressing defective view points. I'm not saying such a project is easy (certainly not easy, in view of the fact that it's up to the corporations to invest and bring wealth to a place and they are not interested in investing in places like Tibet,) but at least we know the other alternative -- political suppression -- is bound to fail. Think of the American government of the past century -- was it a weak government that promoted free market and let corporations loose to invest in whatever ways they want? No, the American government of the past century was mostly a strong, socialistic government (despite that, in name, it opposed Communism. Also ironic is that fact that, in name, it imposed Fascism, but in reality it employed a lot of Fascist methods of control) that regulated businesses, such as by setting anti-trust laws. This means that the formula to economic success isn't to simply promote a free market, but a market that is free enough that corporations are willing to invest, but controlled enough that the government and direct its energy to solve social problems. I'm well aware that the situation of China now is quite different (I believe the corporations of today are much more difficult to control, and the situation isn't entirely comparable to the US in the past century because the corporations now investing in China are foreign businesses backed by powerful countries,) but at least in theory, this direction is much more beneficial than the direction China is taking now.

Edited by MengTzu, 12 June 2005 - 05:11 AM.

[Yun]

Please take away Xizang, Taiwan and Hawaii....they are non negotiable in
Independent from China or USA fullstop!! not a chance!! Sorry.

USC

USC, that is just gratuitous nationalistic raving that has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is the existence of independence movements in some places whether or not such independence is 'negotiable' or justified. Please calm down, and do not make me caution you again.

[snowybeagle]

The funny thing is that no matter how atrocious the acts of the US against Hawaiians were when it was taking over Hawaii, Hawaiians aren't thinking about independence.

Washington DC hasn't secretly crushed the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, has it?

[MengTzu]

I wrote, "The funny thing is that no matter how atrocious the acts of the US against Hawaiians were when it was taking over Hawaii, Hawaiians aren't thinking about independence."

To which snowybeagle responded:

Washington DC hasn't secretly crushed the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, has it?

I actually don't know enough about Hawaiian history to talk about America's atrocious acts against Hawaii, so I apologize for using the term "atrocious" in describing America's acts towards Hawaii. What I do know is that Hawaii had its own royalty by the time the colonists discovered it, and the islands were eventually annexed by the US. I'm not sure how power was wrested away from the Hawaiian royalty. If anybody can look up the history of Hawaii of this period and report it, I'd really appreciate it.

Edited by MengTzu, 13 June 2005 - 07:47 PM.

[Gubook Janggoon]

I actually don't know enough about Hawaiian history to talk about America's atrocious acts against Hawaii, so I apologize for using the term "atrocious acts."  What I do know is that Hawaii had its own royalty by the time the colonists discovered it, and the islands were eventually annexed by the US.  I'm not sure how power was wrested away from the Hawaiian royalty.

IIRC White plantation owners lead a coup, with the help of Marines.

They asked the U.S. to annex Hawaii, but the president at that time refused to.

They lived for awhile as an independent republic and were finally annexed.

Can anyone verify this?

[snowybeagle]

Isn't Shadowfax in Hawaii?
He hasn't been active for a while. Anyone knows him personally and able to get his input on this?
At least, being on-site, he should be in a better position than most of us to garner information.

Yahoo! has a directory devoted to Hawaiian Sovereignity Movement, including one anti-independence website.
http://dir.yahoo.com...an_Sovereignty/

or enter "hawaiian sovereignty" in google.

If there is an interest here, we should spin this off to a new thread on its own.

[caocao74]

IIRC White plantation owners lead a coup, with the help of Marines.
They asked the U.S. to annex Hawaii, but the president at that time refused to.
They lived for awhile as an independent republic and were finally annexed.
Can anyone verify this?

Not sure I can verify it, but that's the story I've always heard.

Just out of interest, are there still any Hawaiians who are claimants to the throne (as is the case with a few (usually considered cranks) in France, for instance)?