40 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

What is the background of 董仲舒? Why did he distorted it, or what happen for Confucianism to be changed in that matter?

Dong Zhongshu 董仲舒 is a han dynasty Confucian philosopher living during Emperor Han Wudi's period. He was responsible for bringing the concept of heaven (in particular cosmology) into the Confucian framework of political philosophy. In particular, he pioneered the ideology that heaven can "feel" the rule of Emperor (son of heaven), and therefore, if the Emperor did not rule well, the heaven will punish the emperor. This ideology is known as "Tianren Ganying 天人感应". He also wrote the famous "3 plans of Heavenly Human (天人三策）", which impressed Emperor Han Wudi.

For more info about Dong Zhongshu, refer to http://en.wikipedia....i/Dong_Zhongshu

Han Confucianism largely changed from Pre-Qin confucianism to bring in cosmology aspect. You can also check out other han confucian philosopher such as Wang Yun, who tends to bring in Yin and Yang cosmology to merge with confucianism.

[sylvester]

What is the background of 董仲舒? Why did he distorted it, or what happen for Confucianism to be changed in that matter?

who and what had basically answered by GZ already,
so let me answer why.

basically, it is a means to make Confucianism win the competition between 100 school of thought.

as you know those 100 school of thught will ont tolerate the existence of each other,
each scholar of those school want to make the emperor use their theory, and to prohibit other theory to spread.

the original Confucianism is just wont be accpetable for the emperor that time, the 漢武帝.
so 董仲舒 distorted it to a accpectable look,
and he success to get the emperor use that distorted Cofucianism.

but if i were 孔子 back to life, i must not forgive 董仲舒's crime to distort Confucianism.
董仲舒's action is filthy, despicable to get the purpose.

[Bao Pu]

I sort of wish we could talk about it, because there's so many things in my mind that I can't think of how to make it clear into sentences that could be understood.
I had dinner last night with a friend who was a philosophy major in college. We talked about a few interesting topics, some regarding how English has a lot of words that could be use to make things more precise. My vocabulary hasn't expanded too much since college, mainly because I do not use them. The other thing is that I don't know exactly how to describe to the fullest of my knowledge as of today, on what about the different philosophies of the 100 schools of thoughts make sense in the modern mind.

Hi,

Well, hopefully you will still try to share your ideas and look for answers here. Your English is good.

What is the background of 董仲舒? Why did he distorted it, or what happen for Confucianism to be changed in that matter?

Whether Dong Zhongshu "distorted" Confucianism or not is not clear. Confucianism was not fixed. Confucius was different from Mengzi, who was different from Xunzi, who was different from Lu Jia and Dong Zhongshu. Like many of the "schools," they all adopted ideas from each other, depending on what made sense to them and what seemed suitable to the times. Confucianism was found by many to be lacking any depth regarding matters of the Natural World, so Dong incorporated some of it. Both Confucianism and Daoism incorporated aspects of what we call Legalism, in the Qin and early Han Dynasties.

[sylvester]

Whether Dong Zhongshu "distorted" Confucianism or not is not clear. Confucianism was not fixed. Confucius was different from Mengzi, who was different from Xunzi, who was different from Lu Jia and Dong Zhongshu. Like many of the "schools," they all adopted ideas from each other, depending on what made sense to them and what seemed suitable to the times. Confucianism was found my many to be lacking any depth regarding matters of the Natural World, so Dong incorporated some of it. Both Confucianism and Daoism incorporated aspects of what we call Legalism, in the Qin and early Han Dynasties.

i disagree with you,
as Mengzi and Wunzi is just on the same road of thought from 孔子 (Conzi in English??),
they all say about 禮, and that 禮 is from everyone's heart,
all of them agree, if you ask yourself, you will know what you should do and what you shouldn't.
thus, the final value judge is done by human.

but in 董仲舒 theory, a consciousness heaven exist,
and doing the job of punish, reward,
thus the final value judge moved from human ourself to heaven.


子曰:「人而不仁,如禮何?」
Conzi(thats what 孔子 in english right??) said, for a man without the kind heart, what's the meaning to obey the laws/rules?
[since all what you act should be told by your kind heart, but not rules]

子曰:「為仁由己,而由人乎哉?」
Conzi said, it is only your decision to be a knidhearted man, how can other people force you to be kindhearted?


so you see, if a people act kindly because he affraid the punishment from heaven,
that's meaningless, he just got the heart of fear, but not the heart of kindness.
what 董仲舒 do is make 漢武帝 got the heart of fear!

[Bao Pu]

Hi Sylvester

i disagree with you,
as Mengzi and Wunzi is just on the same road of thought from 孔子 (Conzi in English??),
they all say about 禮, and that 禮 is from everyone's heart,
all of them agree, if you ask yourself, you will know what you should do and what you shouldn't.
thus, the final value judge is done by human.

I'm not so sure about this. Xunzi viewed Li-ritual as essential to regulate people's behaviour: it was external. Mengzi was more of an internalist, so I think his view was different.

but in 董仲舒 theory, a consciousness heaven exist,
and doing the job of punish, reward,
thus the final value judge moved from human ourself to heaven.

I'm no expert on Dong Zhongshu and have not read the entire Chunqiu Fanlu. But as far as I know, Dong's "Heaven" (天) was not a conscious deity, but rather "Nature." It did not consciously reward and punish people/rulers, but was responsive (Ganying 感應 ?). He adopted this conception from the Huang-Lao Daoists and/or the Yin-Yang theorists, whereby all of one's actions have repercussions and the rulers should take inspiration from Nature and follow its seasons to maintain harmony. For example, in the social world, if a ruler oppresses his people, the inevitable response will be rebellion. And today, if we keep polluting our environment, we will have global warming. There is no consciousness involved: simple cause and effect. But people like Dong went too far, imo, by claiming that if a ruler governs poorly, the crops will not ripen, there will be floods, etc. (The way I see it, if he oppresses the people, the crops may not get harvested, but his poor governing will not prevent the grain from ripening). This has been called "correlative thought" where all human actions have correlates in Nature.

As I mentioned, Dong was showing his influence from the Huang-Lao/Yinyangjia. Confucianism, in focusing solely on mankind and human morality was found lacking by intellectuals of the Han Dynasty. They seemed to have lost touch with their connection to the natural world. (Just as we have today). Personally, I don't find Dong's Chunqiu Fanlu all that insightful, but that's what happens when one is committed to preaching morality, (and tries to connect it to Nature).

Now, if I am mistaken and Dong really did believe Tian was conscious and rewarded and punished people/rulers, is this really not "Confucian"? In the two major "Confucian Classics," the Shangshu (尚書) and the Shijing (詩經), Tian is conscious and rewards and punishes people and rulers.

子曰:「人而不仁,如禮何?」
Conzi(thats what 孔子 in english right??) said, for a man without the kind heart, what's the meaning to obey the laws/rules?
[since all what you act should be told by your kind heart, but not rules]

孔子 is Kongzi (or Confucius). Another translation is "A man who is not Good—what has he to do with ritual?"

子曰:「為仁由己,而由人乎哉?」
Conzi said, it is only your decision to be a kindhearted man, how can other people force you to be kindhearted?

Yes, but in that same 'chapter' (12.1) Confucius says: "Do not look unless it is in accordance with ritual; do not listen unless it is in accordance with ritual; do not speak unless it is in accordance with ritual; do not move unless it is in accordance with ritual." And "Restraining yourself and returning to the rites constitutes Goodness (仁)." So it seems following the ritual rules of behaviour constitutes goodness/'kind-heartedness' !

so you see, if a people act kindly because he affraid the punishment from heaven,
that's meaningless, he just got the heart of fear, but not the heart of kindness.
what 董仲舒 do is make 漢武帝 got the heart of fear!

Yes, just like Judeo-Christianity. I wouldn't say it's "meaningless," but it, imo, is certainly not ideal.

[sylvester]

it is quite a diffcult for me to answer this in english...

may be the easiest way to do so is to point out an e.g.

book that under the writter's name of 董仲舒, called 春秋繁露 said
「國家之失乃始萌芽，而天出災害以譴告之。譴告之而不知變，乃見怪異以驚駭之。驚駭之尚不知畏恐，其殃咎乃至。以此見天意之仁而不欲陷人也」
i shall try to translate it.
"when the emperor begins to rule badly, heaven will make disaster to warn the world. if those disaster warning don't change him (means the ruler), (heaven) then will show something strange and unusual to frighten him. if those strange don't make him frightened (and know he is wrong), then his punishment of death shall come. in this we can see heaven have a kindly heart and wasn't willing to see peoples suffer"

that may be the easiest way to understand that, SKY, or Heaven for 董仲舒, is conscious.


although 尚書 and 詩經 have got some evidence of conscious heaven, 孔孟荀 makes very little talk about it.
the so called five classic 五經 is set up by 漢武帝 after 董仲舒's convincing.


from that sentence i quote, we can see 董仲舒 makes 陰陽 combined into.
those 100 school is fascinating because they were all unique, they are all sharp in just 1 point,
董仲舒 make it combined with 道,墨,法,陰陽,五行 is actually a flattening action.

Edited by Bao Pu, 23 January 2008 - 07:35 AM.
spelling corrections

[Bao Pu]

A very well-written article on Dong Zhongshu's Chunqiu Fanlu appears at Wikipedia (HERE). This excerpt sheds some light on the issue:

The work cannot be considered an authentic work by Dong or even a work where the majority of the writing is by him. It bears many marks of multiple authorship, and is both externally contradictory with other material on Dong's thought, and inconsistent with itself. Different chapters espouse mutually contradictory cosmological schema, and there even seem to be references to the rise of Wang Mang, which did not happen until a century after the death of Dong. The title Luxuriant Dew of the Spring and Autumn Annals is not listed in the Book of Han, and there are no references whatsoever to any book of that name before 4th century mentioned by Ge Hong, 500 years after Dong's death.

I can admit that your example supports your idea. The presence of "Heaven's Will" (天意) seems to be taken right out of the Mozi 墨子.
If I find some time, I will post an excerpt supporting my position. As the above quote says, there seems to have been multiple authors with many different ideas.

[mariusj]

who and what had basically answered by GZ already,
so let me answer why.

basically, it is a means to make Confucianism win the competition between 100 school of thought.

as you know those 100 school of thught will ont tolerate the existence of each other,
each scholar of those school want to make the emperor use their theory, and to prohibit other theory to spread.

the original Confucianism is just wont be accpetable for the emperor that time, the 漢武帝.
so 董仲舒 distorted it to a accpectable look,
and he success to get the emperor use that distorted Cofucianism.

but if i were 孔子 back to life, i must not forgive 董仲舒's crime to distort Confucianism.
董仲舒's action is filthy, despicable to get the purpose.

No. It was a mean to make Confucianism win competition against Taoist. Emperor Wen and Emperor Jin are both heavily influenced by Taoist ideals; as were their mothers. Emperor Wen's wife, whose power is enormous even when Emperor Wu took the throne, is a devoted Taoist, and the Emperor Wu and his mother feared her. It makes one wonder how bad does something need to get before Emperor Wu decide it wasn't worth replacing Taoist influenced court.

Confucianism isn't the theory of one man, it didn't began with Confucius, nor will it end with Confucius. Mencius and Confucius are essentially different, Confucius speaks strongly of system of place, whereas Mencius openly said that 'were one's subject to be treated like mere grass, why shouldn't his subject treat him like enemy.' If Confucius were to speak to Mencius, he would refuse to recognize Mencius followed his path.

From that we can see the Confucianism is an evolving subject; the Classic Confucianism differs from Han Confucianism who differs from Tang's who differs from Ming, and who differs from Qing's.
Dong ChongShu's action wasn't filthy, he didn't distort anything, because we call it his school.

One famous example would be in Song dynasty under the time of Emperor 神宗 during the period 1069-1076, where Wang AnShi was prime minister [twice he was appointed, and twice he was removed] There were several schools of thoughts, whom if you know history, were so brutal against each other that Song was destroyed partially thanks to the in fighting. 蜀学，洛学，经学. They all schools that follow Confucianism ideal; but were Confucius to be alive, who do you think he will side with? Wang AnShi find meaning in Gong Yang, Sima Guang find meaning in the Classics, the Shu brothers [and their father, and their millions of students] took some of both. Are they distorting what Confucianism represents? What meaning is a Gentleman if he uses the same technique that the so called 'little man' uses? In fact, 党籍 is something the so called "Gentleman" used first then pick up by the so called "little man" Are the Gentleman who began 党籍 truly man after Confucius's own heart?

Why would Dong ChongShu be distorting some ideals he inherit, are ideals sacred and untouchable? Freedom in 1796 and 1976 are different; love in ancient Greece and ancient are different; Christianity in time of Christ is different from time of St. Paul called Saul, and time of St. Paul called Saul is different from time of Constantin the Great, and is different from today's time; no, change is by no mean a distortion, it is an evolution, those that cannot adapt to the movement of wheel of time are weed out, only those who adapt may see another day. What use is Confucianism if it was not adapted and thus not in favor of the Celestial Court and thus Han remained Taoists?

Edited by mariusj, 14 March 2008 - 07:47 PM.

[MengTzu]

I have to agree with Bao Pu about Dong Zhong Shu. There's nothing wrong with Dong's syncretism. Most Chinese traditions over the years became interwined with each other and often borrowed from each other. If Daoism is right about something, why should Rujia (Confucianism) shrink away from acknowledging it? Whatever Dong's motive was, his version of Rujia is one out of many valid ones.

As to his view of Tian -- I'm also of the view that it's not clear whether his version of Tian is entirely anthropomorphic. There is certainly a metaphysical element to it. For example, he said that Tian consists of ten things: Tian, Di, humanity, yin, yang, metals, wood, water, fire, earth. (The first Tian that encompasses the ten things and the Tian that is a part of the list of ten are most likely different, as one is a part of the other. Perhaps the first refers to the universe while the latter refers to Heaven.) Furthermore, Kongzi's own view of Tian is not without anthropomorphic elements either. Even if Dong took the idea toward the more anthropomorphic side, I think Rujia is diverse enough to permit different interpretations of the same concepts.

Edited by MengTzu, 15 March 2008 - 12:47 PM.

[Huidao]

In regards to the description of Wu Wei (无为) as non action, i think it's better to define it as non opposition to the events of the world. Many time it is misunderstood as immobility, i think it can be described as action free of attachment to result.
I also have to say that confronting with such great philosphy make any assumption looks inadeguate, at least this are my feelings.

i've found and example for Wu Wei (无为) that can be useful to approach it:

From The book of Nan-Hua ( Zhuang Zi ):

The supreme man uses his heart and mind as a mirror. He does not feed the events nor does he welcome them. He reacts to circumstances from time to time without them leaving a trace in his heart and mind. In this way he owns the creatures without any harm.

Edited by Huidao, 21 July 2008 - 04:21 PM.

[Fatal]

are there any other GZ?