38 replies to this topic

[tadamson]

Everything is relative.
If tang army was armed with spears while its neigbores use stone axes then Tang army would kick ***.
Tang and Han army had superior quality and quantity of weaponry compared to its niegbores and enemies(XiongNu, Tujue)

Actually, whilst the settled states had the ability to produce more weapons, there is little evidence to suggest that they were any better, and the overwealming dominance of Nomad cavalry in China suggesta that Tang soldiers quality was inferior (eg tiny forces of Uighur - 4000 lancers - were decisive every time they interviened)

Edited by tadamson, 03 October 2005 - 06:44 AM.

[Mei Houwang]

I doubt any nomads can have the same quality metalurgy of a sedentary civilization, especailly when it involves the bessemer process, which the Tang had. Uygher troops were probably of superior quality than Tang troops overall(key word, meaning NOT in weapons quality), but for nomads it depends on who. Look at DingFang, who outnumbered 10 to one can still beat off an alliance of nomads(if I remember correctly). Then there's LiSiQi, who beat off Xue Yang Tuo when outnumbered 3 to 1.

Edited by Anthrophobia, 03 October 2005 - 09:44 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Actually, whilst the settled states had the ability to produce more weapons, there is little evidence to suggest that they were any better, and the overwealming dominance of Nomad cavalry in China suggesta that Tang soldiers quality was inferior (eg tiny forces of Uighur - 4000 lancers - were decisive every time they interviened)

Both had their qualities, and its relative. Li Jing clearly mentioned it in his book of military. "When Nomadic empires are strong they defeat and pillage Chinese dynasties, when Chinese armies are strong, 10,000 men from the central plain could annihilate 100,000 nomads."
Nomadic cavalry is far from "overly dominant", warfare in central China is still INFANTRY based. 4000 Uighurs, played a desicive role, but they didn't win on their own, they charged when the battle was indesicive between Guo Zi Yi and teh rebels. It wasn't everytime, because their second battle in 758 was a defeat. Followed that, they had no desicive victories whatsoever, until their armies were finally destroyed by the Kirghiz, and the remainder hordes scattered with royal group destroyed by the Tang army.

Then we got the example of Li Jing's 3,000 men defeating 40,000
Tujue. Li Si Qi's 6,000 soldier defeating virtually the whole confederation of Xue Yang Tuo numbering over 100,000 in size.
And Su Ding Fang's multiple victories against the Western Tujue Khanate with only 10,000 men. Just about every encounter between the early Tang emperors was a defeat for the nomadic confederations which outnumbered the Tang armies. Mocho was able to pull off many victories, and the Khitans too. But the professionalization of frontier units udring the Kai Yuan turned the tide. Mocho's son was killed and the Tang also defeated the Basmils with the help of Uighurs.


"I doubt any nomads can have the same quality metalurgy of a sedentary civilization, especailly when it involves the bessemer process, which the Tang had. "

They don't need to, they can import. The age of fragmentation china is very iopen to pillage and illegal exports. Tujue probably had a great number of Chinese weapons as the Mongols acquired from the Jin.

"Uygher troops were probably of superior quality than Tang troops overall(key word, meaning NOT in weapons quality), but for nomads it depends on who. Look at DingFang, who outnumbered 10 to one can still beat off an alliance of nomads(if I remember correctly). Then there's LiSiQi, who beat off Xue Yang Tuo when outnumbered 3 to 1."

LiSiQi's numerical gap is more around 16 to 1. The Xue Yang Tuo confederation never recovered. They got destroyed in the following year, by the Tang and Uighur armies. The basic skills of nomadic armies are natural better, but their discipline and fighting ability isn't nesessarily superior, the Uighurs were defeated many times by both the Tang and Tubo. Their superiority lies in their vast ground of operation, the steppe of Mongolia, yet when Tang was at its height, they could do little but follow the rules of Tang politics.

[Mei Houwang]

But neither the Xue Yang Tuo nor the Tujue were of Uygher ethnicity right?

[vp98]

The strenght of the barbarians are that they are trained to fight from a young age. So their individual fight skills are on the average higher than the Chinese.

So when the Chinese have long period of peace, their fighting skills fall further behind the barbarians.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

But neither the Xue Yang Tuo nor the Tujue were of Uygher ethnicity right?

Both are multiethnic, they are political terms not ethnic, although due to the area they covered, one group could be more concentrated than another. They have the same style of warfare and organizations.

So when the Chinese have long period of peace, their fighting skills fall further behind the barbarians.

Yes, except that Tang frontier armies were constantly at war during the Kai Yuan and Tien Bao as well as Zheng Guan.

But neither the Xue Yang Tuo nor the Tujue were of Uygher ethnicity right?

Both are multiethnic, they are political terms not ethnic, although due to the area they covered, one group could be more concentrated than another. They have the same style of warfare and organizations.

So when the Chinese have long period of peace, their fighting skills fall further behind the barbarians.

Yes, except that Tang frontier armies were constantly at war during the Kai Yuan and Tien Bao as well as Zheng Guan.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

btw, I made a mistake regarding to the Xue Yang Tuo and Tang numbers, it is around 3:1, 200,000 xue Yang Tuo vs. 60,000 Tang army.

[Akskl]

The Rise and Splendour of the Chinese Empire - by Rene Grousset. University of California Press. Berkeley and Los Angeles: 1968

p.174
...In this extremity, the T'ang dynasty appealed to a Turkish horde called the horde of the Sand-hills - Tchol in Turkish, Sha-t'o in Chinese. The Sha-t'o, who were originally from the Gobi, had been established in the Ordos Loop as allies of China. Taking advantage of the civil war, they had recently settled in the northern part of Shansi (878). Their chieftain, Li K'e-yung, who was then only twenty-eight years old, is one of the most sympathetic figures of his age. (1, The T'ang imperial surname of Li has been conferred upon his father for services rendered to the dynasty). The bravery and loyalty of this Turk contrast with the corrupt behaviour of the other protagonists in this drama of the fall of the T'ang dynasty. The court turned to him to save them from the rebels. He agreed, and afterwards never wavered in his loyalty to the T'ang cause. From Shansi his horsemen (known as "the crows of Li K'e-yung", because they were dressed in black) descended on Ch'ang-an. There the troops of Huang Ch'ao were visibly melting away; after pillaging the capital the peasant rebels thought only of carrying their booty to safety, and one group after another deserted in order to get back to their villages. At the beginning of 883, Li K'e-yung drove out last remaining bands and summoned back the emperor. "Grass and bushes were growing in the deserted streets of the capital, which had become the home for foxes and hares." Huang Ch'ao fled to Shantung, where he was put to death. His principal lieutenant, Chou Wen, who had rallied in time to the imperial cause, obtained as his reward and important fief about Kaifeng (Pien-chou). The saviour of the dynasty, Li K'e-yung, was given the province of Shansi, to which he later added the north of Hopei...

Edited by Akskl, 08 July 2010 - 11:20 PM.