76 replies to this topic

[shawn]

What about Northern Song Dynasty economy? Can everyone explain and elaborate about Northern Song's economy? Did Northern Song trade actively externally with the northern "barbarians" and internally among themselves?

[Ludahai]

What about Northern Song Dynasty economy? Can everyone explain and elaborate about Northern Song's economy? Did Northern Song trade actively externally with the northern "barbarians" and internally among themselves?

The economy of the Song (both north and south) was quite strong, and they engaged not only in internal trade, but in foreign trade with the Liao (and later the Jin), Xi Xia, and during the Southern Song, there was considerable trade with Southeast Asia. In fact, modern estimates point out that Song trade surplusses exceeded the "tribute" payments required by the 1005 Shanyuan Treaty and subsequent treaties.

As for the army, it most certainly was not small. However, they had problems dealing with the steppe warfare tactics of the Liao, Jin, Xi Xia, and especially the Mongols. No Chinese dynasty would have been able to permamently stand up to the Mongols. They were wrecking havoc all over the Eurasian supercontinent.

Someone also pointed out the naval warfare. The Southern Song were very effective at river warfare. This made it very difficult for the Jin to succeed in their later invasions of the Southern Song.

[Whsie]

well, I just made a presentation today over over beggining of the Song Dynasty both in english and chinese. When I mentioned the military part, I mainly talked about the heavy useage of calvary by the northern kingdoms while the Song was more infantry based and even though the army was strong in terms of technology, it wasn't as well ordered and trained. Of course there are exceptions with Yue Fei, Han Shi Zong, but in general the Song's training were inferior to that of the Liao, Xi Xia, Jin, or Mongols. Another point is the Yan Yun 16 Prefectures where the Liao and northern kingdoms had a advantage in geographics because they attack from the top to the bottom. These are just a main points.

From my view, I personally see that the Song Dynasty had 2 prosperous periods for the military. 1) is the beggining during Song Taizu and Song Taizong's reign. The main reason why Song Taizong was defeated was because he didn't allow the generals to fully work alone. In other words, Song Taizong was coordinating the generals such as the case of the 3 armies during the second invasion of the Liao. He was practically trying to do what Han Gwuangwudi was known and successful at, which is directing army at home. Unfortunetly, Song Taizong failed miserably and there were horrible communications between the 3 armies, which resulted in the Song army's defeat. 2) Naturally from my personal view, this is Song's peak in military because it had the most legendary battles with the some of the best generals in chinese history like Han Shi Zong and Yue Fei. Anyone who read their battles would know that they usually win against the Jin army with less resources and less man power due to the lack of support from the weak South Song court.

At the same time, I felt what Warhead said is right as well since the treaty with the Liao signed during Song Zhenzong's reign was when the Song's army had the advantage. Of course the problem was that we don't know if the Song would continue to have that advantage. From my view, I would see the Xi Xia and Mongols as forced treaties, but the Jin certainly was not with Han Shi Zong and Yue Fei making miracles happen with scratch and virtually no support; however, long term, I can't say that the North/South Song would be able to continue to maintain that advantage that they had during the period when the treaties were signed.

[intem]

"1142年 宋绍兴十二年 宋军攻高丽"????
Does anyone know the story behind song army invading koryo? Because i dont recognise any battle invents during southern song dynasty invading koryo. If anyone's got any information about it, you are very appreciated for your contribution.

best regards,
Intem

[Whsie]

really? what source? Realistically speaking, I doubt the Song invaded the Korean kingdom because at that time, Song Gaozong was the ruler of China and he was spending more time worrying about the Jin Empire. I highly doubt he would split the army to go invade Korea while his own country was getting attacked.

[intem]

really? what source? Realistically speaking, I doubt the Song invaded the Korean kingdom because at that time, Song Gaozong was the ruler of China and he was spending more time worrying about the Jin Empire. I highly doubt he would split the army to go invade Korea while his own country was getting attacked.

i got it from liangjieming, according to his sources it has this part mention.
chinese history timeline
just copy and paste this quote into find browser,"1142年 宋绍兴十二年 宋军攻高丽". If you understand chinese then you'll know what is it saying, but if you dont just ask someone that understands chinese to verify my quote.

best regards,
Intem

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

As for the army, it most certainly was not small. However, they had problems dealing with the steppe warfare tactics of the Liao, Jin, Xi Xia, and especially the Mongols. No Chinese dynasty would have been able to permamently stand up to the Mongols. They were wrecking havoc all over the Eurasian supercontinent.

The Song regular army is actually superior in quality compared to most other dynasties. It was a full time professional army with vigorous training. Its the coordination system that was poor. The Mongols would certainly have failed against any other dynasty that control all of the central plains. Even against the Jin, it was more due to the crucial support of Xia and the internal strife caused by the Red Coat rebellion that the Mongols were able to capture Zhong Du.

Does anyone know the story behind song army invading koryo? Because i dont recognise any battle invents during southern song dynasty invading koryo. If anyone's got any information about it, you are very appreciated for your contribution.

In 1142, Koryo still haven't submitted to Jin. Jin ordered Song to send an army to invade Kogryo, since Song was a Jin vassal at the time, it obeyed, but the attack didn't accomplish much. However, diplomatically, Koguryo did recognized Jin Suzerainty.

[intem]

The Song regular army is actually superior in quality compared to most other dynasties. It was a full time professional army with vigorous training. Its the coordination system that was poor. The Mongols would certainly have failed against any other dynasty that control all of the central plains. Even against the Jin, it was more due to the crucial support of Xia and the internal strife caused by the Red Coat rebellion that the Mongols were able to capture Zhong Du.
In 1142, Koryo still haven't submitted to Jin. Jin ordered Song to send an army to invade Kogryo, since Song was a Jin vassal at the time, it obeyed, but the attack didn't accomplish much. However, diplomatically, Koguryo did recognized Jin Suzerainty.

Song was a vassal of Jin? You mean those remnants of Song Ren at the time of northern song dynasty(former song dynasty) was under controlled by jurchens? I though most of the northern chinese fled down south and southern song would eventually be established. Im pretty sure southern song dynasty wasn't a vassal of jin, but rather, two military powers stand against each other.

best regards,
Intem

[Mei Houwang]

So Southern Song did pay annual tribute to their northern neighbors. That's pretty much the definition of being a vassal(or a tax payer, whatever makes you happy).

[Yang Zongbao]

I believe I also read somewhere, I think in Lo Jungpang's article on Song Dynasty's Naval Warfare, that the Song Dynasty had some sort of plan to use the Korean Peninsula as a base to attack the Song Dynasty's northern neighbors? Is this mentioning the same attack? Or separate plans by the Song? It's not elaborated very much, so further information would be appreciated.

[intem]

So Southern Song did pay annual tribute to their northern neighbors. That's pretty much the definition of being a vassal(or a tax payer, whatever makes you happy).

oh yeah, i forgot about regular tributes that southern song dynasty was paying to. But, buying saftey doesn't resort to having to oblige Jin's hegemony over the korean pennisula, and thus dispatch an army out to invade koryo does it? If you think carefully, its the same situation as early han dynasty as they were buying safe from the xiong nu. Im pretty sure you know better than that.

Edited by intem, 18 February 2007 - 09:30 PM.

[intem]

I believe I also read somewhere, I think in Lo Jungpang's article on Song Dynasty's Naval Warfare, that the Song Dynasty had some sort of plan to use the Korean Peninsula as a base to attack the Song Dynasty's northern neighbors? Is this mentioning the same attack? Or separate plans by the Song? It's not elaborated very much, so further information would be appreciated.

Not quite sure but if you click on the link i gave above in my previous post in this thread, it was liang jie ming who typed up those battle timeline of each dynasty. When i was scrolling down through those battle events, i was surprised when i came acroos and see that song dynasty had attempt to invade koryo, so thats why i asked about if anyone knows about the background info of that event.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Song was a vassal of Jin? You mean those remnants of Song Ren at the time of northern song dynasty(former song dynasty) was under controlled by jurchens? I though most of the northern chinese fled down south and southern song would eventually be established. Im pretty sure southern song dynasty wasn't a vassal of jin, but rather, two military powers stand against each other.

best regards,

Yes, Southern Song agreed to become a vassal of Jin and pay annual tribute to the Jin court after GaoZong sued for peace and executed Yue Fei. In his letter to the Jin emperor, Song GaoZong(and subsequent southern song emperors) called himself, "your subject, Zhao Gou." This situation only changed after Wan Yan Liang's(Hai Ling Wang) futile invasion of the Song in 1161, henceforth, Jin was only the uncle, but not the soverign state, but Song's payment were still called tribute.

Edited by warhead, 20 February 2007 - 01:43 PM.

[mc77]

Rather than assessing each dynasty separately, it is better to consider them as part of longer historical movements in Chinese imperial rule. When you consdier the periods of Tang -> Song as part of the classical period in Chinese imperialism, you will see the parallels with the rise and fall of the Roman empire. After all, the Roman empire was also ruled by several different dynasties or families of rulers.

The period from Tang -> Song can be compared to Rome: from after the punic wars, when it defeated Carthage to its fall to barbarians in the 5th century AD. Thus Rome was the dominant empire for 6 centuries. Early on, the Romans focused on military conquest. By the time of Caesars Rome had reached its greatest extent. After Augustus, there was a peaceful period for nearly 100 years before Rome began its decline. Although on the surface it was still mighty, the truth was it had to use barbarians as mercenaries. Byt its end, it was sacked multiple times and its empire carved into pieces by formerly subjugated "barbarian tribes"

The Song empire built on the foundation left by Tang. Thus it was able to achieve great things in culture: literature, philosophy, technology, etc. By that time, China had developed a culture that emphasized cultural achievement and harmony over the ability to make war. To further its development, the Song dynasty used a professional army under civilian control. In comparison, northern tribes recruited warriors as a way of live, making it much easier to raise an army. Just as today modern nations have difficulty getting people to enlist and paying their salaries while more militant states can use their ideology as a way of getting soldiers for "free". Like the Roman empire, the classical Chinese empire couldn't last forever. Even though Chinese people back then were not militant they were still brave in standing up to the Mongols. The Mongols would kill everyone who resisted and they eventually decimated all the great powers of the time. I don't think all civilized powers will eventually lose to militant powers, but all empires have difficulty keeping their fire and their fighting spirit alive.

[bhchao]

Song was a high point in poetry, literature, art, and technological innovation. Some of the artistic styles that originated in the Tang dynasty, like Ci poetry, were fully developed during Song. The civil service exams that were developed and extensively used during Wu Zetian's reign reached peak usage during the Northern Song. Neo-Confucianism of course had its roots during this period.

The tea testing competitions that began during Tang were perfected during Song. It was common to see scholar-officials debating policy issues at these tea houses. A black cup was used at these competitions to see the amount of white powder at the rim of the cup. The winner of the competition was selected by the amount or existence of powder on the inner edges of this cup.

The printing press and moveable type were invented in 1040 and 1041, respectively. The compass, invented during the Han dynasty, started to be used for seafaring purposes during Song. Paper money was first introduced during Song as well, beginning in the western regions of China and centered in Sichuan.

From my view, I personally see that the Song Dynasty had 2 prosperous periods for the military. 1) is the beggining during Song Taizu and Song Taizong's reign. The main reason why Song Taizong was defeated was because he didn't allow the generals to fully work alone. In other words, Song Taizong was coordinating the generals such as the case of the 3 armies during the second invasion of the Liao. He was practically trying to do what Han Gwuangwudi was known and successful at, which is directing army at home. Unfortunetly, Song Taizong failed miserably and there were horrible communications between the 3 armies, which resulted in the Song army's defeat. 2) Naturally from my personal view, this is Song's peak in military because it had the most legendary battles with the some of the best generals in chinese history like Han Shi Zong and Yue Fei. Anyone who read their battles would know that they usually win against the Jin army with less resources and less man power due to the lack of support from the weak South Song court

Civilian control of the military by an inept factionalized bureaucracy certainly contributed to Song's vulnerablity to outside invaders. The factionalism at court also inhibited progress in reforms, as demonstrated by the pro-Wang Anshi reform and anti-Wang Anshi reform factions (Su Shi being part of the anti-Wangs) during the Shenzong reign. A culture of consensus-based politics in court rarely existed.

I find it ironic that the Mongol defeat of the Southern Song was partly contributed by Chinese POWs and captured technicians who taught the Mongols to use cannons, the very weapon that enabled the Song to withstand them longer than the rest of Asia/Eastern Europe.