76 replies to this topic

[wan sui yeh]

I remember my teacher of history once said that Song dynasty was the weakest of all chinese dynasties. Such a view is indeed rather narrow minded and it does merit a discussion. The Song was indeed the weakest in therms of millitary might and territorial expansion, but it is unfair to judge a dyansty timeline purely on the basis of the millitary. The Song excelled in terms of cultural achievement, scientific advancement, economic progress adn extension of knowledge. It is genrally seen as an age where chinese culture and learning floursihes as both arts and teachnolgy see a huge pace of advancement. Its economy flourishes as both domestic and international trade was encoraged. Politically, the imperial system was also the most liberal of all the dynasties certainly more dynamic than that mIng and Han. Song also strengthned the meritocracy of the examination systems leading to higher quality of goverment that is based on pratical abilites rather than heritage. It is indeed far from what many deem is a failure, when culturally, financially, and technologically it is indeed the most succesful nation in its time though millitarily Song was constantly threathen by powerful neighbors first by the Khitans then by the Jurchens and finally vanguished by the Mongols. Thus taking an unbias view of the Song we can conclude it is indeed a dynamic, vibrant and progressive time period far more succesful than the Ming and even equalling that of High Tang

[bhchao]

I remember my teacher of history once said that Song dynasty was the weakest of all chinese dynasties. Such a view is indeed rather narrow minded and it does merit a discussion. The Song was indeed the weakest in therms of millitary might and territorial expansion, but it is unfair to judge a dyansty timeline purely on the basis of the millitary. The Song excelled in terms of cultural achievement, scientific advancement, economic progress adn extension of knowledge. It is genrally seen as an age where chinese culture and learning floursihes as both arts and teachnolgy see a huge pace of advancement. Its economy flourishes as both domestic and international trade was encoraged. Politically, the imperial system was also the most liberal of all the dynasties certainly more dynamic than that mIng and Han. Song also strengthned the meritocracy of the examination systems leading to higher quality of goverment that is based on pratical abilites rather than heritage. It is indeed far from what many deem is a failure, when culturally, financially, and technologically it is indeed the most succesful nation in its time though millitarily Song was constantly threathen by powerful neighbors first by the Khitans then by the Jurchens and finally vanguished by the Mongols. Thus taking an unbias view of the Song we can conclude it is indeed a dynamic, vibrant and progressive time period far more succesful than the Ming and even equalling that of High Tang

The military during the Song was more powerful technologically than in marital fighting prowess or offensive capabilities. In contrast, the military during High Tang inherited the northern warlike legacy of the semi-sinicized barbarian tribes like the Xianbei.

Although Song military was not as "macho" as its Tang predecessors, it was able to make up for this deficiency through technology. Technological advances like hand grenades, cannons, and even flame throwers made its way through the Song military. This was a big asset in prolonging the Mongol conquest of Song China. Less emphasis on manpower and more emphasis on "streamlining" the military technologically.

Song China was able to prosper economically because the Song emperors devoted little resources into maintaining large standing armies. Instead local militias were encouraged, particularly under Wang Anshi. Thus the need to tax the populace to fund armies is greatly reduced. Since farmers have more money in their pockets due to lower taxes attributed to low military spending, they could easier afford to purchase and sell land, a privilege during Song. Farmers are motivated to work harder on their own land than on rented land, resulting in greater agricultural production that can be sold on the market for profit. This was the same formula used in Taiwan's successful land reform program in the 1950's.

The invention of the printing press and moveable type in Song China helped expand literacy among the masses. Farmers became more knowledgeable in utilizing irrigation techniques on their land. These factors made the Song dynasty a golden age in agrarian advancement and created a population explosion.

Song dynasty had the first, truly market-oriented economy in the world. In addition to paper money, promissory notes and merchant banking accounts were common. Merchants could conduct transactions in long distances without carrying cash as long as they had deposits in these accounts. Migration into commercialized areas to earn money led to greater population density and the growth of urban centers. As more people are added to the middle class with increased affluence, higher standards of living demand luxury goods and entertainment centers. It's said that the most beautiful ceramics in Taipei's NPM were those made during Song.

Of course Song China was also one of the liberal periods in Chinese history. Emperors rarely executed officials who disagreed with them. There was more delegation of decision making to court officials, especially to the prime minister. I don't recall hearing a Song emperor being a micromanager having to create every bit of policymaking down to the tiniest detail. Instead they held the moral high ground on any matters forwarded to them. Similar to the US Supreme Court taking a passive role until cases are finally forwarded for its review.

Song dynasty also produced China's most prominent poetess, Li Qingzhao.

Too bad foot binding started to become a luxury item during Song. But it did not become institutionalized until Yuan and Ming.

Edited by bhchao, 26 June 2007 - 11:18 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

After doing some more research on the demographics of the Song, I have to say that I'm not very impressed by the living standard of the peasants during the Song, certainly nothing comparable to the High Tang during the Kai Yuan, not even the prosperity achieved during the early Sui. In fact its almost as bad as the Yuan dynasty. The Yuan dynasty was in many ways a continuation of the Song in economic and social matters, only making the problems worse.
Although the Song was more productive on a per capita basis than the Tang, with its busting trade and the green revolution, the peasants were living under crushing heavy taxes and a greater amount of tenants meaning increasing oppression from landlords.
"比年多稼不登，富者操奇赢之资，贫者取倍称之息“

Historians never ocumented a 治世 or prosperity eras during the Song. All they've mentioned was exploitation of the poor by the rich. There were only four dynasties in Chinese history which does not have a Zhi Shi(prosperous eras). They are: Qin, Jin, Song, and Yuan. The Song might have been the best of these four, especially in its early years, but not by much.
Historians always notes prosperity eras during the Han, Tang, Ming, Qing, and even the Sui, but all we here of the Song were exploitations.
The prosperity era for the other dynasties were as follows:

Han (Wen Jin era文景之治 50 years, Han Xuan era 汉宣之治 25years, Ming Zhang era明章之治 21 years),
Tang (Zhen Guan贞观之治 13 years, Shui Wei era 水微之治 20 years), and Kai Yuan era 开元盛世 30 years.)
Ming(Ren Xuan era 仁宣之治 11 years)
Qing (Kang Qian Era 康乾盛世 over 100 years）.
Even the Sui had Kai Huang 开皇之治 for 24 years.

By life quality(relative to the previous era) I would rank the different dynasties as below:

1) Tang
2) Han
3) Qing
4) Ming
5) Song
6) Sui
7) Jin
8) Yuan
9) Qin

As for population growth, the newest study in the 中国分省区人口史 history of Chinese population by province, the demographic growth during the Song is slower than those of the Han, Tang, Ming and Qing. It overthrew the traditional notion that the Song was a prosperous era with high rate of demographic growth. In reality its growth rate is average, due to its stability(not because of economic strength or military prowess, but because the Song has extremely strong internal control, crushing peasant rebellion immediately)
So in terms of population growth I would rank the dynasties as follows in terms of growth rate:

1) Qing
2) Tang
3) Han
4) Ming
5) Song
6) Sui
7) Yuan
8) Jin
9) Qin

Now in military, the Song is probably the weakest, although there is no statistics in this case, I'll rank the dynasties as follows(overall, and relative to their starting position, not at their strongest moments or in terms of global influence):

1) Han
2) Tang
3) Qing
4) Yuan
5) Sui
6) Qin
7) Ming
8) Jin
9) Song

The only thing which the Song dynasty might claim to be great at is technological innovation and cultural development as well as its total GDP output(which is rather meaningless if the dynasty is so weak), other than that, its not a very impressive dynasty either in terms of military or living standard.

[Mei Houwang]

Do you have the statistics of the taxes for these dynasties? The idea that the Song is one of the poorest(median-wise) instead of one of the wealthiest dynasties is contrary to present thinking, but it's an interesting idea.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Oh, don't get me wrong, the Song is not poor at all. The problem is the mal distribution of wealth. Tenant farming increased drastically during the Song. The poor got poorer, and is barely above subsistent level, but the rich got wealthier. This got worse during the Yuan, thats why we find numerous rebellions in the South that occured in over 200 locations. The Yuan perhaps contain the most peasant rebellions in relative terms in all of Chinese history, and it is not because the rulers were Mongols, but because the landlord problem that rose during the Song got worse when the ruling elite allied with the landlords.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Do you have the statistics of the taxes for these dynasties?

I do not have the statistic for overall taxes. However, I do have pieces of different types of taxes for each dynasty, and putting them together is a pain, I rather not do something which other more professional historians have already done.
All I can tell you is that the farm tax during the Han was only 1/30. That of The Song is at least 1/15.

I do however have the statistics for popuation growth from the lowest point in population to the highest point in population in each dynasty, which reflects life standard in a way.

Qin: almost no growth
Western Han: 6.32%
Eastern Han: 7.28%
Western Jin: 3%
Sui: 15%
Tang: 10.29%
Northern Song: 6.4%
Yuan: 5.83%
Ming: 5.87%
Qing: 7.57%

As we can see, N. Song's population growth rate is slower than most other dynasties except the Qin, Western Han, Yuan, and Ming. And thats only because during the Western Han, we have an intermission of the devastating Xiongnu war. If that is taken aside, the growth rate during the Western Han might rival those of the Tang and Qing. Similarily, the Ming growth rate was fastest during the Hong Wu period, reaching 9.47%. Wars later decreased its population.
This shows that the life standard under the Song was not so great compared to the other dynasties. Interestingly however, it appears that prior to the Koguryo wars, the Sui dynasty had an extremely fast growth rate. Matching the fastest growth rate during the Tang. Another revisionism we might consider. I uphold my view that the Sui dynasty is the most underatted dynasty in Chinese history.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

Sorry to interrupt Warhead, but after reading many, many posts, I have to ask the question:

Has everyone forgotten what happened to the Jin Dynasty (265-420 AD) in 311 AD and 316 AD? They were split in half just the same as the Song, only instead of Jurchens invading it was the Xianbei of the north. At least the Southern Song Dynasty kept it together with a strong navy, strong economy, advancement of technology, etc. while the Southern and Northern Dynasties fell one after the other to rapid new successors in unstable succession until Sui Wendi unified China in 589 AD (with the fall of Chen in the south to Sui). In terms of how "weak" the Song was, has everyone forgotten the fact that it took the Mongols (arguably the most powerful nomadic force in Eurasia's long history) 40 some odd years to conquer the Southern Song after the Jurchen Jin Dynasty fell in 1234?

Furthermore, and not even counting Yue Fei, two of the greatest Chinese naval victories in Chinese history took place during the Song Dynasty! This of course was the Jurchen invasion of the Southern Song in 1161 AD, with an enormous Jin Dynasty navy pitted against a smaller Southern Song navy. Despite this, using trebuchet launched bombs and superior military strategy, the Chinese won stunning victories in the Battle of Tangdao and the Battle of Caishi, forcing the Jin to call off their military campaign, and the ensuing assassination of the current Jurchen monarch.

http://en.wikipedia....ttle_of_Tangdao
http://en.wikipedia....attle_of_Caishi

As the phrase goes, "Put that in your pipe and smoke it."
Eric (En Rui)

Edited by Non-Han Nan Ban, 30 June 2007 - 08:18 AM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Has everyone forgotten what happened to the Jin Dynasty (265-420 AD) in 311 AD and 316 AD? They were split in half just the same as the Song, only instead of Jurchens invading it was the Xianbei of the north.

It wasn't the Xian Bei which invaded the Jin, but the Xionnu within the Jin empire. It was an internal rebellion, not an external invasion. Furthermore, this was already amidst the rebellion of the eight kings. The Jin dynasty was already very unstable at that time, and that was why Liu Yuan took the opportunity to rebel. And even here, the Jin displayed greater military competence than the Song; it destroyed the rebellious Chen Han kingdom, and repulsed the Xiong Han kingdom initially, held them off for years. The Song lost almost immedieately to Jin invasion from the outside. This is coupled with the fact that the Song had no internal crisis at this time other than an extremely weak and corrupt court.

Furthermore, the Song never controlled all of China. The Jin on the other hand, when it was at its height, was a power comparable to the Eastern Han; it extended its power into the western region, and east into Korea. There were no external threat during Sima Yan's time.

At least the Southern Song Dynasty kept it together with a strong navy, strong economy, advancement of technology, etc. while the Southern and Northern Dynasties fell one after the other to rapid new successors in unstable succession until Sui Wendi unified China in 589 AD (with the fall of Chen in the south to Sui). In terms of how "weak" the Song was, has everyone forgotten the fact that it took the Mongols (arguably the most powerful nomadic force in Eurasia's long history) 40 some odd years to conquer the Southern Song after the Jurchen Jin Dynasty fell in 1234?

The Eastern Jin not only kept itself together, but defeated Fu Jian's Qin forces at Fei Shui, causing the northern regime to break up. The Jin followed and captured Chang An and ended the later Qin(which was a successor of the former Qin) and also destroyed Southern Yan, the Eastern Jin recovered most of the northern territory for over a year. It even force marched through northern Wei's territory in Hobei. If Liu Yu didn't withdraw because he wanted to become emperor, both Wei and Xia might have been destroyed later.
In another words, the Jin's nothern expedition was a success, and destroyed its powerful northern neighbour(the only two times in Chinese history, the other one been the Mng overthrow of the Yuan) the Song not only failed, it became a vassal. The southern regimes that succeded Jin were all powerful regimes that gave the northern regimes a serious challenge for supremacy, all the southern Song did was pay tribute and at times declare vassalage to the north.

As for the Mongols, mongol horse warfare was never good at the type of warfare in southern terrain, in fact, most of the Yuan forces that invaded southern Song wasn't Mongol at all, but Han Chinese. The desicive battle was also a naval battle between Chinese fleets. And the northern man power at this time was extremely devastated, with little more than 20 million compared to some 60 million people in the south. On the contrast, the Northern Wei has a population of some 35 million, while the Southern regime only has around 18 million. The fact that the Song could not resist such a weak north is a sign of weakness, not strength.

Furthermore, and not even counting Yue Fei, two of the greatest Chinese naval victories in Chinese history took place during the Song Dynasty! This of course was the Jurchen invasion of the Southern Song in 1161 AD, with an enormous Jin Dynasty navy pitted against a smaller Southern Song navy. Despite this, using trebuchet launched bombs and superior military strategy, the Chinese won stunning victories in the Battle of Tangdao and the Battle of Caishi, forcing the Jin to call off their military campaign, and the ensuing assassination of the current Jurchen monarch.

The Southern Song wasn't militarily weak, but politically weak. It appeases on many occasion when it was actually winning. This might have been due to a nostalgic fear of regional military power that was inherited from the Tang and eastern Jin, after all, during Jin's northern expedition, general Liu Yu destroyed Qin, recovered all the territory south of the yellow river, and then overthrew Jin and established Liu Song. Zhao Gou might have studied this episode in history, if Yue Fei succeeded in recovering all of the Song territory, and maybe even destroying the Jin as he claimed to do, he would undoubtly be too powerful and will overthrow the Song.

Edited by warhead, 30 June 2007 - 07:47 PM.

[Beccy]

despite other faults (and there were many) you have to admit that Song clothing was pretty d**** cool

[Cathian]

The Song is a Great dynasty and it represents peak of medieval in the world. Indeed, it has been destroied tragically by some chance and some necessary factor. However thinking back, considering the legacies that the Tang dynasty left to, the worst international environment in chinese history and the horrible wound of long wars, the Song dynasty can be called "high quality dynasty".

Edited by Cathian, 08 July 2011 - 10:47 PM.

[Loong]

Song is not a high quality dynasty.

Again, Song is one of the worst dynasty, as many technologies could be developed further, but was hampered due to politicking, corruption, and maldistribution of wealth. It is one of the rare dynasty, where the ruling Han actually tortured their same "Han" people.

It would not be wrong for one to say, it is a shameless period, where chinese should reflect and study it so that no future mistake can occur, like what happened in the Song dynasty.

[Cathian]

Where is your misunderstanding coming from？“corruption, and maldistribution of wealth”？ In these respects, it is much better than Han dynasty and Ming dynasty, let alone the deceptive Tang dynasty. please find out what people said in Chinese tradition, your opinion will be overturned thoroughly.

[Loong]

Sorry, fully apologise. What I was thinking was the Ming dynasty... A late night reply was uncalled for.

Apologise Fully for my mistake. It is Ming dynasty that is the worst dynasty.

I will sit by a little corner, and squirm for my insolence comment. Again, it is not Song, but Ming.

[Cathian]

“It is Ming dynasty that is the worst dynasty.”
No, No.

Wheel less than Ming. Southern Liang & Northern Qi are waving to you.
If you only consider unified empire, Eastern Jin smiles but not the language.

[mariusj]

The Song is a Great dynasty and it represents peak of medieval in the world. Indeed, it has been destroied tragically by some chance and some necessary factor. However thinking back, considering the legacies that the Tang dynasty left to, the worst international environment in chinese history and the horrible wound of long wars, the Song dynasty can be called "high quality dynasty".

It would be tragic if it wasn't destroyed.

Just think of it, it is ASKING to be destroyed. It was not by chance. It would be a miracle if it wasn't destroyed.