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Jurchens/Manchus were Korean ?


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#31 DomaHwang

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 11:04 AM

The extent of 'Chinese' political domination of the northeast, or presence in general, tends to be greatly exaggerated. Even the Beijing area, which was the Liao Empire's Southern Capital, was eventually known as Khanbalik, etc, while briefly occupied by the Song was never fully within any 'Chinese' sphere of influence until later on during the Ming Empire. The Ming gradually pushed the 'cultural frontier' up as far as today's Liaoning province, leading to the confrontation with the soon-to-be-formed Manchus. Nothing north of this had any connection with the central plains until the Qing went in and took it over.

Regardless, the political argument for a Koryeo/Joseon-Manchu connection is pretty much out once stability was achieved on the peninsula, but the common ancestral root theory is still alive, again since conclusive evidence one way or the other is lacking.

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1. Yes, the current Northeastern poople are very close entity. Han China only had Liao area for 800 years (?) or so. That is what PRC is afraid of - people of northeast realise the fact that they are not Han chinese in blood - .
'Han China' cannot accommodate the identity of northeastern people. So it is a reason to promote multi-cultural or ethnic China to accommodate these people.
A funny thing can happen making Ghengis Khan as a Chinese hero. That is funny.

2. However, it was Korean who did not accept Northern relatives as close family in history. Korea during Chosun (Yi) era reached its maximum in terms of adoring Chinese regime, and despised north brother as barbarian. :no:

#32 Eishin21

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 06:10 PM

Um that is not true. The majority of the North East feature Han Chinese. Just check wikipedia.org. <_<
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#33 Adee

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 07:35 PM

But majority of Han Chinese in the North East migrated from Shandong right?

#34 kaixin

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 11:53 PM

Jilin and Heilongjiang was most definitely outside of the Han Chinese orbit. But, Liaoning had always been within it. Even before China became an empire, there was a Chinese kingdom in today's Beijing and Liaoning area (Yen kingdom). How else do you think Chinese culture and genes were easily transmitted to Korea?

#35 tianzhuwoye

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Posted 14 July 2005 - 12:45 AM

But majority of Han Chinese in the North East migrated from Shandong right?

Yep, mostly Shandong and Hebei.

'Han' presence in the area wasn't widespread until later on during the Qing, even if the wildly vast majority of the people in Dongbei today are descendents of the late Qing-era 'settlers' or from families that are officially recognized as Han by now.

A bit into Shunzhi's reign the emperor worried that the northeast was underpopulated (PRC works highlight the scale of the fighting in the area during the late Ming and the southward flow of the ruling northeastern population into China after the Qing took over) and became concerned about the potential to make the most of its resources. So he initiated a settlement project to entice farmers from the central plains to settle in the northeast, complete with an elaborate incentive and reward system. His successor Kangxi, with the excuse that the ancestral Manchu homelands would be lost if mass scale immigration were to occur, sealed off the area with the famous 'Willow Palisades' (English?) policy. This obviously was next to impossible to enforce 100% and people trickled into the area, which eventually became easier as the Qing began to weaken. There were later bursts of immigration, especially during the 20th century, once other empires with interests in the region began to offer relatively high wages.

A key hint at the level of Chinese involvement in the area is the fact that the first Chinese records and surveys of the northeast were only written during the Qing, and produced by educated Southerners exiled to the northeast by the Qing court. The celebrated first one of these is the《绝域纪略》, written in recollection by 方拱乾 Fang Gongqian in the early 1660's after he returned home to Anhui following his exile to the Ningguta area. The book, like most that would follow through to the Republican era, was a compilation of jottings and recollections by a literate Sinophone visitor to new and strange lands. The men writing these texts (really getting into it only after the Daoguang period) would delight in describing the bizarre features of the landscape and lifestyles of the native populations, as well as in pointing out how incorrect the geography of the area as understood back home was (even if they ending up contradicting themselves on occassion). While often less than rigorously presented, these few texts are invaluable resources for providing rare glimpses into a region that we just don't have any earlier records of.

Not that there weren't any immigrants from the central plains in the area before the Qing took over Beijing. The numbers were relatively few and most likely fall short of indicating the amount of political control we usually assume that earlier central plains empires had over the northeast.

Jilin and Heilongjiang was most definitely outside of the Han Chinese orbit. But, Liaoning had always been within it. Even before China became an empire, there was a Chinese kingdom in today's Beijing and Liaoning area (Yen kingdom). How else do you think Chinese culture and genes were easily transmitted to Korea?

The problem with this (and nationalist/racialist views in general) is it needs to assume that monolithic concepts of Chineseness and Koreaness, where modern politics, written records and some weird takes on biology are supposed to be the same thing, had to be maintained for well over two thousand years. We understand this in retrospect only (otherwise, how is the northeast so closely tied to the PRC today?). Still, even with these standards, Liaoning might not make the cut.

Also, the state of Yan fell long before Han orbit existed.
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#36 DomaHwang

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Posted 14 July 2005 - 03:02 AM

The problem with this (and nationalist/racialist views in general) is it needs to assume that monolithic concepts of Chineseness and Koreaness, where modern politics, written records and some weird takes on biology are supposed to be the same thing, had to be maintained for well over two thousand years. We understand this in retrospect only (otherwise, how is the northeast so closely tied to the PRC today?). Still, even with these standards, Liaoning might not make the cut.

Also, the state of Yan fell long before Han orbit existed.

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You are right. Korean had influx from Yan (Xienbei), but until recently the monolithic concept of Korean has not accepted this. Only after nationalist historian insist the grand Dong-Yi (even including part of Xienbei?), it starts to be accepted rather smoothly. So politics always impose monolithic concept in either one form (narrow Han/narrow Korean ) or another (grand Han/Korean - including Xienbei and Mongol). When the concept of two group (Chinese&Korean) extends to the latter, there might be conflict becasue they have not graduated from monolithic concept school, (pretending they did).

#37 DomaHwang

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Posted 14 July 2005 - 04:43 AM

Korean in Chosun period (recent Chosun) did not think Jurchens as highly related people. The influence from Han Chinese caused them to think Han-civilised Korean is superior to less Han-civilised Jurchens.

Korean seem to feel sorry for Jurchens about the past attitude.

Edited by DomaHwang, 14 July 2005 - 04:50 AM.


#38 kaixin

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 12:55 AM

^What are you talking about? Yen kingdom had always been a Huaxia (Han Chinese) kingdom. Their Chinese ancestors conquered lands in the northeast and was granted a kingdom status by early Zhou Dynasty. Qin Shihuangdi's childhood friend was the prince of Yen. It is obvious they are from the same race.

Also, Han Dynasty had ruled over Liaoning for over 400 years. It was the bridge that connected China with Korea. There were governors who often ruled hereditarily (ie Gongsun family). From there, Chinese culture, immigrants and genes flowed into Lolang (Korea) and on to southern parts of Korea and Japan.

Edited by kaixin, 15 July 2005 - 12:57 AM.


#39 DomaHwang

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 05:02 AM

^What are you talking about?  Yen kingdom had always been a Huaxia (Han Chinese) kingdom.  Their Chinese ancestors conquered lands in the northeast and was granted a kingdom status by early Zhou Dynasty.  Qin Shihuangdi's childhood friend was the prince of Yen.  It is obvious they are from the same race.

Also, Han Dynasty had ruled over Liaoning for over 400 years.  It was the bridge that connected China with Korea.  There were governors who often ruled hereditarily (ie Gongsun family).  From there, Chinese culture, immigrants and genes flowed into Lolang (Korea) and on to southern parts of Korea and Japan.

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Gongsun family is Han definately. I am talking of general people of Yan (Yen) and somewhat like Moyong (Morong? 慕容) family.

Yan in warring state invaded Gojeosun and occupied Liaoxi. Just before Qin Shihuangdi, I suppose.
At that time it was not Gongsun faimily. Well uncle of Zhou was the first ruler of Yan..?.. so ruler class came from central plain.

Still I am suspicious of the general people living there.
I suppose old Dong-Yi people were general people there (please do not be offended, majority of old Dong-Yi people become Chinese in my opinion). However, in terms of ethinic spectrum, they were somewhat middle of Shang-Zhou people and Gojeosun (ancestor of Korean) people.

However, Zhou Dynasty? Yan at the time central Chinese occupied Liao-river?
At that time it was near Beijing I suppose?
Could you give more firm evidence like remained arts etc. (I might not have learned recent findings or biased in getting information, so please let me know)

Edited by DomaHwang, 15 July 2005 - 06:54 AM.


#40 Heisui

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 11:35 AM

:) :) The whole Northeast area of China and presentday Korea is a enormous landmass. Via DNA testing Northern Han,Manchurian,Mongolian and present day Koreans share common the same DNA. "Chosun" or present day North or South Korea's were part of various Chinese empires along mankinds historic timeline. I think it's fair to say presently China observes and respects the current boundaries. Any internet hostilty flamming is unwarranted and determental to Asian Unity.

Gongsun family is Han definately. I am talking of general people of Yan (Yen) and somewhat like Moyong (Morong? 慕容) family. 

Yan in warring state invaded Gojeosun and occupied Liaoxi. Just before Qin Shihuangdi, I suppose.
At that time it was not Gongsun faimily. Well uncle of Zhou was the first ruler of Yan..?.. so ruler class came from central plain.

Still I am suspicious of the general people living there.
I suppose old Dong-Yi people were general people there (please do not be offended, majority of old Dong-Yi people become Chinese in my opinion). However, in terms of ethinic spectrum, they were somewhat middle of Shang-Zhou people and Gojeosun (ancestor of Korean) people.

However, Zhou Dynasty? Yan at the time central Chinese occupied Liao-river?
At that time it was near Beijing I suppose?
Could you give more firm evidence like remained arts etc. (I might not have learned recent findings or biased in getting information, so please let me know)

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#41 kaixin

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Posted 23 July 2005 - 03:43 PM

^Via DNA testing, Koreans as well as northern Han have Y markers (paternal genes) more in line with East Asian and Southeast Asian patterns. Esp. Haplogroup O marker.

Manchus and Mongols have more of the Haplogroup C marker.

#42 qrasy

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 12:37 AM

^Via DNA testing, Koreans as well as northern Han have Y markers (paternal genes) more in line with East Asian and Southeast Asian patterns.  Esp. Haplogroup O marker.

Manchus and Mongols have more of the Haplogroup C marker.

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Refers to this picture:
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Haplogroup C is a 'brother' of F, a far ancestor of many lineages.
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Look at this picture of Autosomal gene, HLA class 2:
(taken from www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/index/N553DJ52AF8XLD7U.pdf)
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Udegeys (seems Mongolians) seem quite far from Guans(Tibetan) in this group, even farther than BouYei (some of descendants of BaiYue)

Edited by qrasy, 24 July 2005 - 12:46 AM.

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#43 kaixin

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 02:11 AM

^Wajin (Japanese) and Korean cluster with the Han and Guan (Tibetans). It is apparent that even though they are Altaic linguistically, their genetics are Sino-Tibetan.

I think the language was imposed on their them via Puyo invasions, but the genes changed little. Either that, or the Han Chinese invasions and migrations significantly altered their genes.

Edited by kaixin, 24 July 2005 - 02:14 AM.


#44 kaixin

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 05:58 AM

Is Haplogroup K an Asian or Caucasian marker? I noticed that Asians, Central Asians and some Middle Eastern groups have it. More in Asia, and decreasing in Central Asia/Middle East.

#45 Gubook Janggoon

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 03:07 PM

^Wajin (Japanese) and Korean cluster with the Han and Guan (Tibetans).  It is apparent that even though they are Altaic linguistically, their genetics are Sino-Tibetan. 

I think the language was imposed on their them via Puyo invasions, but the genes changed little. Either that, or the Han Chinese invasions and migrations significantly altered their genes.

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You know, there really isn't any proof that Korean or Japanese is Altaic...there's barely any proof that Altaic even exists either.

I think that the more accepted grouping of Korean and Japanese is as isolates.


And it wouldn't be right to say the Buyeo imposed language on the Koreans and Japanese. These terms didn't exist back then and there was certainly no Korean people as of yet.
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