72 replies to this topic

[shunyadragon]

Thanks for your reply!
There were a variety of methods at a variety of times, and you are correct. Tsiens paper (as well as another I put a link to earlier here) listed various methods, although simple were effective. It also appears the Liangzhu may well have sometimes gathered diamond powder or ultra hard particles from alluvial deposits (like silt) and 'panned' for it (as a gold miner does) by using animal skin. This could cut down jade to ultra fine polishes, and the infered evidence for this being used in some cases is strong.
As for the length of time, the father to son carving jade story is repeated for the pre-historic jade carving industry of the Maori too, but I reasonably would put it at weeks to produce an item. Longer fine art works might require huge periods of time of course but when an industry and skill base is effecient I would anticipate sites that produced these items as a speciality and in numbers. These will be the Chinese equivalent I have found in NZ of stone working/industrial areas, and I have a number of ancient jade & calcite 'cores as well as 'pre-forms & 'blanks' of unfinshed Dong Son jades I will post soon.
The fact these have turned up provides some insight into the industry, and suggests people have found workshop sites where jades were made.
Early settlers noted that Maori in quiet times might pull out a jade and rub it on a stone while they talk, but the length of time by simple abrasion does not need to be years.
I know of archeaologists in NZ who made perfect stone adzes in the traditonal way (and length of time is something I pondered when I began to find stone workshops and fragments or whole adzes during my fieldwrk) and he can work, flake, fine polish and haft and stone adze in 2 days and then chop down a tree with it!.
The tools worked well, and the investment was not for a tool for the grandchildren (or a bangle in this case), although I have heard that 'generations of work' idea before I dont believe it will be born out by any real test.

I just found this thread and I have enjoyed reading it. I have reasons to doubt that diamonds or diamond dust were used by Chinese to polish jades, but that is another story.

I believe these jades may be older Neolithic Jade Cultures co;;ected from tombs from as early as the Liangzhu or dawenko Cultures. Like other Neolithic nephrite carvings found in the collections of the early dynasties were probably taken from older tombs.

I am interested in the origin of the nephrite from which the carvings were made. I have over the years don some work in the unique nature of the chemical composition and impurities different nephrite deposits. It appears that these properties may be unique and that there are none destructive tests that may reveal the origin of the stone. The primary early source of Neolithic nephrite was a mountain west of Shanhai. Nephrite from Xinjiang is reported to have been traded and used in eastern China as early as 4000 years ago. there are also soures of small deposits in central China, and there is a small deposit near the Bwoenite/Serpentine Deposits in Liaoning Provicne. Recently there is reported Neolithic use of nephrite from northern Heilongjiang Province.

[Kenneth]

The nephrite could be identified I am sure, but I don't believe it would come from the same sources as the well-known jade cultures to the north. I haven't looked into this but there should be rivers and sources for jade in southeast asia also. Such material can be traded across hundreds of kilometres.

These items are attributed to the Dong Son culture, and not from the neolithic cultures you mentioned. This is based on information from the source and he knows the culture well enough to judge.
About the appearances, many archaic features are preserved in border/minority peoples which may have connection to the neolithic period in China. This can be seen in bronze and ceramics, and the jade yue is one example here.
Shang aspects for instance might be kept in material culture by people on the borders after they have died out in the 'central plains' of China. The socketed bronze spears & and early-style halberds of the southern minorities for example.
The fixing of the broken nephrite bangles with bronze wire for instance, and the style of the heavier calcite bangles (quite a number of calcite bracelets I didnt post here BTW, which are not like Chinese and quite distinctive) all fit within a cultural type which is different to neolithic Chinese.
The collared bangles like shown here have been found on Shang sites also, but otherwise the function is an ornamentation and not as the more well known discs in the neolithic period related to shamanism in stone-age China.
The pictures of similar bangles to these on the thread on the arms of skeleton in southeast-asian sites shows a clear link to these people, and a more mundane use. The cultural practice of adornment like this was spread over a wide area of 'Indo-China'
The alleged locality of these pieces in my collection is Yunnan, and that is quite likely as Sino-Viet artefacts in the Zhou period exist both within and inside the area of modern China.
These might be called 'Dong Son' in modern times but at the period the people lived the Chinese would call them the Yue, or Nan-Yue tribes. These peoples different tribes numbered in the hundreds. 'The Hundred Yue' is another name from the time.
One other suggestion that this is different to Chinese material is the commonly afixed traces of plant roots. On the calcite objects these are fused into the surface. I believe an entire cemetery and even a workshop area, maybe an extended single site, was found under well established vegetation in Yunnan during clearing and excavation, and the entire hoard came to Hong Kong and was purchased. A fraction came to me as a study gift. No more of these items have come to market via the same source since I am told. The amount of plant roots clinging to these items is not something I have seen on 'Chinese' objects. This means both lush plant growth and shallow burials. This was probably a tribal graveyard discovered during some work project in the warm & humid south of China and sadly the entire find was dug out and sold for profit.
I am sure this happens quite often in the pace of industrial progress and development.

[shunyadragon]

The nephrite could be identified I am sure, but I don't believe it would come from the same sources as the well-known jade cultures to the north. I haven't looked into this but there should be rivers and sources for jade in southeast asia also. Such material can be traded across hundreds of kilometres.

The problem with this is there are not any potential sources of nephrite in Southeast Asia, or South China, even Yunnan, because they lack the Blue Schist formations necessary for nephrite. Myanmar has the formations necessary for the formation of jadeite, bit not nephrite. I have catalogued and visited most of the possible sources of nephrite in china and the surrounding countries.

I am interested in cooperative projects in the use of non-destructive methods of identifying the sources of nephrite, and possibly other jade-like stones of Asia like Bowenite, used in ancient carvings if anyone is interested.

These items are attributed to the Dong Son culture, and not from the neolithic cultures you mentioned. This is based on information from the source and he knows the culture well enough to judge.

OK, but I still believe there is a possibility that these artifacts originated from late Neolithic cultures in Central Eastern China, based in part on the fact of the lack of geologic sources in the south.

About the appearances, many archaic features are preserved in border/minority peoples which may have connection to the neolithic period in China. This can be seen in bronze and ceramics, and the jade yue is one example here.
Shang aspects for instance might be kept in material culture by people on the borders after they have died out in the 'central plains' of China. The socketed bronze spears & and early-style halberds of the southern minorities for example.

I believe trade was quite wide spread even in the Neolithic, even glass ear rings have been found in Vietnam dated as early as 200 AD.

The fixing of the broken nephrite bangles with bronze wire for instance, and the style of the heavier calcite bangles (quite a number of calcite bracelets I didnt post here BTW, which are not like Chinese and quite distinctive) all fit within a cultural type which is different to neolithic Chinese.
The collared bangles like shown here have been found on Shang sites also, but otherwise the function is an ornamentation and not as the more well known discs in the neolithic period related to shamanism in stone-age China.

Is what you call calcite, marble or an amorphous white limestone? Usually calcite is crystaline and fractures to easilly to be used for carvings.

[Kenneth]

I will ask if there is knowledge of the geological sources for Dong Son jades. I have a couple of people who I could question, who are more specialised in the Dong Son area.

The calcite is named according to what I was told, but the collection it came from has been under laboratory testing even if not the exact items I possess.
A simple reaction can be seen by adding vinegar to the surface, but this would not identify whether it is in the limestone end of the spectrum or if it is marble.
The items are however translucent if I look below the calcinated white-chalky layer. They are opaque green or pale green-blue in colour and would have been used as a jade-like stone. It is more than just dull limestone then.
I have sanded one piece a little to see the translcent colour, but almost all of them have had alterations so the surface are dull & white now. Most are pure white.
The calcite bracelets are made much more robust than the nephrite examples so were likely more fragile. I didnt show all the pieces but the bulk and cross section of the calcite bangles is heavier. Some have quite a bit of weight, one I have must weigh a few pounds.
A few calcite objects I have are more like thin circular 'bi' and quite delicate. These are in fragments though. In China there were even pottery 'bi' in Han era tombs and likely all cultures looked for substitutes to outfit tombs. Calcite may be inferior but it is a more common mineral.
Nephrite, especially if from afar like you say, would not be something that came cheapily.
This is why these bangles are carefully repaired even after breaks.
Some of the calcite bangles are repaired too btw, but seems to be cord instead of bronze wire as no trace exists of the linking material, having decomposed.

Perhaps when I have time I will post some of the calcite examples. They have a triangular cross section, are thicker, and in a short cone shape as they narrow from one broader end.

[shunyadragon]

I will ask if there is knowledge of the geological sources for Dong Son jades. I have a couple of people who I could question, who are more specialised in the Dong Son area.

The calcite is named according to what I was told, but the collection it came from has been under laboratory testing even if not the exact items I possess.
A simple reaction can be seen by adding vinegar to the surface, but this would not identify whether it is in the limestone end of the spectrum or if it is marble.
The items are however translucent if I look below the calcinated white-chalky layer. They are opaque green or pale green-blue in colour and would have been used as a jade-like stone. It is more than just dull limestone then.
I have sanded one piece a little to see the translcent colour, but almost all of them have had alterations so the surface are dull & white now. Most are pure white.
The calcite bracelets are made much more robust than the nephrite examples so were likely more fragile. I didnt show all the pieces but the bulk and cross section of the calcite bangles is heavier. Some have quite a bit of weight, one I have must weigh a few pounds.
A few calcite objects I have are more like thin circular 'bi' and quite delicate. These are in fragments though. In China there were even pottery 'bi' in Han era tombs and likely all cultures looked for substitutes to outfit tombs. Calcite may be inferior but it is a more common mineral.
Nephrite, especially if from afar like you say, would not be something that came cheapily.
This is why these bangles are carefully repaired even after breaks.
Some of the calcite bangles are repaired too btw, but seems to be cord instead of bronze wire as no trace exists of the linking material, having decomposed.

Perhaps when I have time I will post some of the calcite examples. They have a triangular cross section, are thicker, and in a short cone shape as they narrow from one broader end.

Thank you for the cosideration of looking into this further. I am looking forward to corresponding to you on the nature of these nephrite carvings and others.

[Kenneth]

Hi Shunyadragon,
I got a couple of responses which between them addresses the points of long distance trade at very early times, artefactual types, nephrite sources, "calcite" etc.

I asked a few folk or their thoughts on the sources of jade worked by Dong Son communities.
Melanie Roy (recently a CHF member), who is certainly a notable expert on the examination and {proffesional} metallurgical analysis of ancient bronzes responded;

"I am unfamiliar with the sources of jade in the Yunnan area, but there was extensive trade with that region and mainland China as far back as the Zhou dynasty. Lead isotope analysis** on several hundred, if not more, ancient Chinese bronzes has revealed that the lead came from Yunnan. With that kind of trade it is not unreasonable for jade to have made its way down to Yunnan.

As for glass, there is evidence of foreign glass in China at least as far back as the Warring States period, so the Dong Son culture could easily have acquired some as well.*"

*Glass was initially exported into China from the 'near East' and India in the Warring States period and used to make beads. Glass was still imported in the Han period and was an expensive item, used in similar ways to jade.
The Dong Son examples may well come from Indian sources as there was a 'Southern Silk road' known to exist in the Han period which moved Chinese goods via India. Han Wudi sent emmisaries to locate this route, who came to bad ends.
Glass was moved as blocks and then heated into a soft state and formed into objects. Some objects were traded as finished articles, like 'eye beads'.
Chemical analysis can distinguished local and imported objects.


**The use of lead isotope analysis to identify specific sources for lead, i.e the actual mine, have shown that much of the lead used in ancient China came from Yunnan.
I had read of this in a report on Chinese bronzes by Prof. Bavarian but it slipped my mind in the present context.
In recasting of objects ancient bronzes might mix the seperate lead signatures in objects but this technique has revealed that of the famous Ba culture bronzes of Sichuan in the Shang period, i.e the masks of SanXinDui & the bronzes in the Royal Shang tomb of consort Fu Hao in Anyang, amazingly the lead came from the same & unique Yunnan source.
There was then a system of exhange that linked the distant and mysterious south to the central plains then. Such material as lead ingots and likely precious stones can change hands many times.

Certainly an ancient trade network existed even distributing to the central plains in the ancient period as confirmed by lead isotope analysis, but a local origin for nephrite is suggested by mention of Dong Son localities as yeilding nephrite below.
While there is oppurtunity for jade to come to Yunnan it is also said to occur locally.
Note; the sources used by ancient peoples can be called 'micro-sources' and not be included in geological surveys of broad regions that study formations as 'macro-sources'.
I know of examples in NZ where very discrete and localised sources of stone may be worked and traded long distances.
Also ancient sources over long periods can be exhausted and exact origins of materials unknown. I have heard that allegedly one jade culture in China worked nephrite of a type no longer availible to modern forgers.

Chad Herrington kindly sent me a Pdf. of an article by Sam Bernstein (of S. Bernstein & Co. Jade & Oriental Art) which discusses his published collection.
The pieces on this thread are from the same collection,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The cultural and archaeological context of the Herrington Collection"
...characteristics strongly suggests a regional origin in the province of Yunnan..extending into what is today known as Vietnam & Northern Thailand {i.e; Dong Son culture}.
...The present collection exhibits characteristics archaeologically similar to artefacts recovered from Dong Son cultural sites.

Many of the objects in this collection are rendered from a quartz marble-like material reffered to as calcite. Numerous pieces are fashioned from nephrite jade and other items have been formed from precious stones such as agate, carnelian and rock quartz.
Proffesor Dung reports the presence of jade embedded together with limestone recovered from the local mountains.
All of these stones are native to the Dong Son cultural sphere......including bracelets, thickened bangles, collared discs, beads...And open notch earing {jue}.
Archaeological reports suggest the earliest objects {of this type} were produced as early as approxiametely 3500BC through to a later period of 1000 to 700BC.

The discovery of hoards from this region is documented in reports from scientifically excavated burial sites. ....Phung Nguyen yielded 540 bracelets...nearly 50 earrings.....another...Van Dien, 611 bracelets along with...a number of discoid cores.
{Chads published collection is certainly in the region of hundreds of bracelets alone}.

The material of the objects recovered from Dong Son sites is primarily calcite. Archaeological evidence shows nephrite jade was also utilized by the Dong Son artisans....
The volume and extent of the Herrington {collection} illustrated in "Early Chinese Stone and Circular Art" pages 30-206 along with the extended and unpublished collection is the largest collection of its type in the Western Hemisphere. It would rival the best collections of any Asian museum.

{bibliography}
See "Ancient Jade Manufacturing Traditon in Vietnam" by Nguyen Kin Dung"......

etc.
{has a list of texts, and identified comparible examples in them, i.e; calcite bangle forms in excavations.}

Edited by Kenneth, 02 October 2007 - 04:16 PM.

[shunyadragon]

I asked a few folk or their thoughts on the sources of jade worked by Dong Son communities.
Melanie Roy (recently a CHF member), who is certainly a notable expert on the examination and {proffesional} metallurgical analysis of ancient bronzes responded;

"I am unfamiliar with the sources of jade in the Yunnan area, but there was extensive trade with that region and mainland China as far back as the Zhou dynasty. Lead isotope analysis** on several hundred, if not more, ancient Chinese bronzes has revealed that the lead came from Yunnan. With that kind of trade it is not unreasonable for jade to have made its way down to Yunnan.

As for glass, there is evidence of foreign glass in China at least as far back as the Warring States period, so the Dong Son culture could easily have acquired some as well.*"

*Glass was initially exported into China from the 'near East' and India in the Warring States period and used to make beads. Glass was still imported in the Han period and was an expensive item, used in similar ways to jade.
The Dong Son examples may well come from Indian sources as there was a 'Southern Silk road' known to exist in the Han period which moved Chinese goods via India. Han Wudi sent emmisaries to locate this route, who came to bad ends.
Glass was moved as blocks and then heated into a soft state and formed into objects. Some objects were traded as finished articles, like 'eye beads'.
Chemical analysis can distinguished local and imported objects.
**The use of lead isotope analysis to identify specific sources for lead, i.e the actual mine, have shown that much of the lead used in ancient China came from Yunnan.
I had read of this in a report on Chinese bronzes by Prof. Bavarian but it slipped my mind in the present context.
In recasting of objects ancient bronzes might mix the seperate lead signatures in objects but this technique has revealed that of the famous Ba culture bronzes of Sichuan in the Shang period, i.e the masks of SanXinDui & the bronzes in the Royal Shang tomb of consort Fu Hao in Anyang, amazingly the lead came from the same & unique Yunnan source.
There was then a system of exhange that linked the distant and mysterious south to the central plains then. Such material as lead ingots and likely precious stones can change hands many times.

Certainly an ancient trade network existed even distributing to the central plains in the ancient period as confirmed by lead isotope analysis, but a local origin for nephrite is suggested by mention of Dong Son localities as yeilding nephrite below.
While there is oppurtunity for jade to come to Yunnan it is also said to occur locally.
Note; the sources used by ancient peoples can be called 'micro-sources' and not be included in geological surveys of broad regions that study formations as 'macro-sources'.
I know of examples in NZ where very discrete and localised sources of stone may be worked and traded long distances.
Also ancient sources over long periods can be exhausted and exact origins of materials unknown. I have heard that allegedly one jade culture in China worked nephrite of a type no longer availible to modern forgers.

Chad Herrington kindly sent me a Pdf. of an article by Sam Bernstein (of S. Bernstein & Co. Jade & Oriental Art) which discusses his published collection.
The pieces on this thread are from the same collection,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

etc.
{has a list of texts, and identified comparible examples in them, i.e; calcite bangle forms in excavations.}

Iwill disagree with the note that there may be 'micro sources' of nephrite in Yunnan. See thread on nephrite sources in China. The geology of China and Yunnan is known in more detail, in part due to extensive modern prospecting for minerals, than many non-Geologists understand. Yes, there are small deposits in many localities in the world and in China some are known to mined or foraged to the point none is left, but they are still associated with a suitable nephrite bearing bedrock like blueschist. The problem with Yunnan and the other provinces of southern China is that the Geology is not even close to the type of rock formations absolutely necessary of nephrite to occur. The rock formations for jadeite are also entirely absent until you go south into Myanmar (Burma).

Yes, I was correct in assuming that what is called Calcite here is in fact Marble or an amorphous limestone material. I have some examples of very attractive modern carvings out of an amorphous calcareous material.

I also spent two years in Kunming researching this and discussed this with local geologists. In this time I visited many areas to look at the geology myself. Yes, there were rumors of nephrite and of course jadeite, but no, they do not occur in the formations of Yunnan. Despite the claims of Professor Dung, it is impossible for nephrite to form in limestone or marble rock formations. Nephrite only forms in low temperature, high pressure metamorphic zones in subduction zones where Blueschists are formed. Jadeite forms in similar formations of low temprature high pressure subduction zones where Sodium (Na) dominates.

New zealand has classic typical proper rock formations for the jade found there even whe reported in small amounts.

I am not comfortable with Sam Bernstein's academics, and some of the articles published in his 'journal-like' publications are questionable. They are very attractive and glossy, but his commercial interests in jade caste a shadow on his publications. I may go into this in more detail later on some individual topics in the future. This cause some heat and controversy.

I would be interested in published works by Professor Dung or others that give more details to the reportd nephrite found in Yunnan Provice, localities, and the type of rock the nephrite was found in. If possible I would like a copy of this article that you recieved, but I need more than 'reported finds that are undocumented.'

The best reference I can give in my journeys and studies in China is Yang Boda, whom I had a personal interview with and a collection of his publications.

Edited by shunyadragon, 02 October 2007 - 09:37 PM.

[Kenneth]

Since the south trade network existed it is possible for nephrite to come all the way from the same sources the ancient Shang or Zhou may have used.
A local source is not required, as something presumably came in the opposite direction as lead which went north.
Since you are obviously very interested in the subject I would suggest you find the article by Prof. Dung (assumedly the same Nguyen Kin Dung of "Ancient Jade Manufacturing Traditon in Vietnam") as the 'local mountains' may refer to sources outside of Yunnan, as the cultural area is larger than that and the reference to 'local' was a little vague. The 'Yunnan cultural sphere' was defined as larger than the current PRC province.
Can you confirm there are no suitable zones in either Thailand or Vietnam?
It would seem quite wrong for Prof. Dung to report the 'presence' of a material which does not exist, but of course geology is only a coincidental interest of mine. Even with that in mind the presence of limestone and nephrite together sounded pretty odd to me. If you are certain of geological information to counter the suggestion it could even exist then I will disregard that reference and assume the nephrite is from further afield.
There were certainly mechanisms in place for nephrite to have travelled long distances.

I did see your thread on nephrite sources BTW. As jade is not my main area of artefactual studies I only know the most famous sources.
I am also aware that Yang Boda is a recognised expert in Chinese jades, so you are fortunate to be able to discuss these topics with him.

[shunyadragon]

Since the south trade network existed it is possible for nephrite to come all the way from the same sources the ancient Shang or Zhou may have used.
A local source is not required, as something presumably came in the opposite direction as lead which went north.
Since you are obviously very interested in the subject I would suggest you find the article by Prof. Dung (assumedly the same Nguyen Kin Dung of "Ancient Jade Manufacturing Traditon in Vietnam") as the 'local mountains' may refer to sources outside of Yunnan, as the cultural area is larger than that and the reference to 'local' was a little vague. The 'Yunnan cultural sphere' was defined as larger than the current PRC province.
Can you confirm there are no suitable zones in either Thailand or Vietnam?
It would seem quite wrong for Prof. Dung to report the 'presence' of a material which does not exist, but of course geology is only a coincidental interest of mine. Even with that in mind the presence of limestone and nephrite together sounded pretty odd to me. If you are certain of geological information to counter the suggestion it could even exist then I will disregard that reference and assume the nephrite is from further afield.
There were certainly mechanisms in place for nephrite to have travelled long distances.

I did see your thread on nephrite sources BTW. As jade is not my main area of artefactual studies I only know the most famous sources.
I am also aware that Yang Boda is a recognised expert in Chinese jades, so you are fortunate to be able to discuss these topics with him.

Thank you for your response. It does show i need to do some homework on the sources you cited. My principle interest here is well documented sources of the occurance of nephrite and jadeite localities where I have not researched. I may return to Asia next year to do some more field work an like source.

I do feel that more documentation of sources, and developing methods to matching nephrite and jadeite to the sources can better document trade routes and relationships between Neolithic Cultures. This has been done well to document the nephrite trade from Xinjiang region to central and eastern China beginning about 4000 to 3800 years ago, but more work needs to done for other localities and sources.

[Kenneth]

Just for some more info on jade working outside of China, and more in the sphere of Sino-Viet or even more distant SouthEast Asian cultures, I got this from Will Stuart (another person with more knowledge of these types of ornamentation and the aspects non-Chinese jade working than me).
Bear in mind he is offering his opinions on sources, he also was commenting on Prof. Dung as I quoted him who he would be unlikely have your background by which to doubt this 'cultural sphere'/local mountain idea for nephrite. I will make sure to inform him of your doubts about Yunnan at least.
He does however seem to think Vietnam or further south is more probable than Yunnan for origins, and it may well be such 'local' source Dung was meaning in his oblique and rather confusing reference since 'Yunnan cultural sphere' can be defined in quite broad terms. He appears to be a Vietnamese archaeologist, so the reference is a bit enigmatic.

"Dear Kenneth,

Sorry to be so slow replying to your original post. Too much teaching!

The article which you now attach covers some of what I was going to say, with regard to the Phung Nguyen culture in the Red River valley, long before the emergence of Dong Son. I don't think I've seen evidence of lapidary work with jade as early as 3500 BCE but it was certainly in full swing on a large scale in the early second millennium BCE. The objects made were mainly bracelets, both adult and for children, often with a complicated structure of flanges and ridges and very finely worked. It seems highly probable that the jade came from close at hand. One of the most tantalising pieces of information is that jadeite as well as nephrite - and of course other forms of "jade" such as serpentine, green quartz, calcite and marble - has been found there. I don't know what the earliest date for jadeite in China is, but the material was not much used there until more than 3000 years later.

Jade (nephrite) is also found in large quantities in the Sa Huynh culture in Southern Vietnam (the north side of the Mekong delta) around 350-200 BCE. It was locally worked, again in forms quite dissimilar to anything Chinese, and came almost certainly from local sources. Sa Huynh jade bracelets, earrings and beads have been found as far afield as Taiwan, the Philippines and Burma.

We find jade again in several first millennium BCE sites in Thailand; it may not be from local stone though it was probably locally worked. And in the Pyu kingdom in Burma in the first millennium CE jade, both nephrite and jadeite, was made into exquisite animal-shaped beads (tigers, elephants, frogs, turtles). The jadeite presumably came from the Hnkawng valley in Kachin state, where the huge mining operations of the Qing dynasty period were located.

I'm afraid I don't know of any documented sources of jade in Yunnan in antiquity, though I wouldn't be surprised if they existed. But anyway, as far as Dong Son was concerned it seems most likely that the primary source of jade would have been Vietnam itself.

I don't have any pieces from Phung Nguyen, but I'll post some pictures of items from Sa Huynh, Thailand and Burma as soon as I get the photos taken.

I'll respond to the question about early glass soon, too. It's very complicated and interesting.

Best regards,

Will"

[MC420]

Just for some more info on jade working outside of China, and more in the sphere of Sino-Viet or even more distant SouthEast Asian cultures, I got this from Will Stuart (another person with more knowledge of these types of ornamentation and the aspects non-Chinese jade working than me).
Bear in mind he is offering his opinions on sources, he also was commenting on Prof. Dung as I quoted him who he would be unlikely have your background by which to doubt this 'cultural sphere'/local mountain idea for nephrite. I will make sure to inform him of your doubts about Yunnan at least.
He does however seem to think Vietnam or further south is more probable than Yunnan for origins, and it may well be such 'local' source Dung was meaning in his oblique and rather confusing reference since 'Yunnan cultural sphere' can be defined in quite broad terms. He appears to be a Vietnamese archaeologist, so the reference is a bit enigmatic.

Both Nephrite and Jadeite mines could be found in Northern Vietnam (Son La province) as well as other corundum mines (compatible gem quality to that of Burma); Before the Sinicized period in Vietnam, ancient Vietnamese had already mined and used nephrites for ornamental purposes (1400-1000 BC). Ancient jade (nephrite) ornaments were found at a production center recently excavated at Trang Kenh (Hai Phong). In Central Vietnam, the ancient Sa-Huynh people also created nephrite ornaments and beads as well as glasses which left their marks throughout Southeast Asia (from Thailand through the Philippines penisula). Yes, before the arrival of the Chinese from the northern part of the Yangze river, the ancient Southeast Asian people had develop their own unique cultures as well. Perhaps with more objective view of the ancient cultural developments in the East and Southeast region, we could identify better achievements of the ancient people who lived in this vast region and they did leave their marks not only in agriculture developments (wet rice farming, domesticated animals of pigs and chickens...) but also in the advent of metal minings as well as cultural and artistic development in lieu of the ancient jade culture as we start to acknowledge yet.

[Kenneth]

Thanks for the info. It seems that sourcing from within the Dong Son sphere is likely, and Shunyadragon should be able to confirm these now the localities are named so specifically.

Since this thread seems to have come back to life again I should make efforts to post more of the artefacts from the assemblage.
There are still quite a number of bracelets of hard stone, nephrite & calcite (and even possibly serpentine based on ones fracture patterns) and long stone beads and round carnelian beads for me to add.
Chad had confirmed that 2 socketed bronze axes he sent with the lot were from the same source.
The axes are here; http://z8.invisionfr...p?showtopic=177 and are Sino-Viet in style.

The distintive heavy calcite bangles really need adding to compare with the finer nephrite collared discs.
A number of calcite bi (in fragments) were also in the same group.
Something I will work on this weekend when I have time for photography....

[shunyadragon]

Both Nephrite and Jadeite mines could be found in Northern Vietnam (Son La province) as well as other corundum mines (compatible gem quality to that of Burma); Before the Sinicized period in Vietnam, ancient Vietnamese had already mined and used nephrites for ornamental purposes (1400-1000 BC). Ancient jade (nephrite) ornaments were found at a production center recently excavated at Trang Kenh (Hai Phong). In Central Vietnam, the ancient Sa-Huynh people also created nephrite ornaments and beads as well as glasses which left their marks throughout Southeast Asia (from Thailand through the Philippines penisula). Yes, before the arrival of the Chinese from the northern part of the Yangze river, the ancient Southeast Asian people had develop their own unique cultures as well. Perhaps with more objective view of the ancient cultural developments in the East and Southeast region, we could identify better achievements of the ancient people who lived in this vast region and they did leave their marks not only in agriculture developments (wet rice farming, domesticated animals of pigs and chickens...) but also in the advent of metal minings as well as cultural and artistic development in lieu of the ancient jade culture as we start to acknowledge yet.

Very interesting. Your reference to nephrite and jadeite from Vietnam inspired me to make an net search and found this:

Gemstones in Vietnam, A review by Pham Van Long1, Gaston Giuliani2, Virginie Garnier3, Daniel Ohnenstetter3

Reprinted from The Australian Gemmologist
Volume 22, Number 4, October–December 2004

This gives support for the argument that Vietnam itself is the source of the nephrite for the Neolithic Cultures.

Edited by shunyadragon, 04 October 2007 - 06:43 AM.

[Kenneth]

I found some old pictures on my PC of 3 calcite articles.


Repaired 'typical' calcite bangle.
(note the different form and cross section to nephrite)



Heavy & large calcite bangle.
(quite cumbersome. I will weigh this and add the figure to the thread, as it is oddly heavy)



Thin 'bi' disc
(note cemented root marks.
This is one I sanded a tiny section to reveal the blue-ish translucent stone under the calcination)

[fsgien]

Both Nephrite and Jadeite mines could be found in Northern Vietnam (Son La province) as well as other corundum mines (compatible gem quality to that of Burma)

a fascinating topic, for a novice who only knows about jewelry green jade.
do you have any geological comparisons between the nephrites of New Zealand, British Columbia and Asia?
Burmese Jewelry Jade, what are their related sources elsewhere in the world?