68 replies to this topic

[kaixin]

Both groups are highly Sinicized, but have maintained their political and ethnic independence.

China had invaded Vietnam many times, many of the troops coming from Guangdong. Northern parts of Vietnam were relatively easy to fight in because the climate was similar to Guangdong and Guangxi. But, when they go deeper south it is virtually impossible to fight in unless you are accustomed to the tropical jungle environs and heat.

It is this same reason why Americans and Mongols were driven out of Vietnam too.

In Korea, it was the Manchurian blizzards that crippled Sui/Tang invasions.

Otherwise, Vietnamese and Koreans today would be just provinces of China. Nature made it this way.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Both groups are highly Sinicized, but have maintained their political and ethnic independence.

China had invaded Vietnam many times, many of the troops coming from Guangdong.  Northern parts of Vietnam were relatively easy to fight in because the climate was similar to Guangdong and Guangxi.  But, when they go deeper south it is virtually impossible to fight in unless you are accustomed to the tropical jungle environs and heat.

It is this same reason why Americans and Mongols were driven out of Vietnam too.

In Korea, it was the Manchurian blizzards that crippled Sui/Tang invasions.

Otherwise, Vietnamese and Koreans today would be just provinces of China.  Nature made it this way.

Eulji Mundeok would disagree.

[snowybeagle]

How then did the troops from Han etc. dynasties acclimatised to the regions like Yunnan etc which were similarly heavily forested/jungles, with high humidity etc. and marshlands?

[stupidumboy]

Mongols finished the whole Korean peninsula invasion for 44 years of combats against Koryo.

Manchus had invaded Chosun very easily because Chosun's national power had become very worse after Toyotomi's invasion war OF Korean peninsula for 7 years.

China tended to intervine with wars in the Korean peninsula when the foreign invaders came to near close to the Yalu river only (both to the Korean war and Hideyoshi's invasion) because they do not want to bordering face with other stronger and more anti chinese centered countries.

Therefore I think Korea would be the best for one of the countries that face bordeing with China in land.

[AhMan]

If you ask me, when I got down from Bejing to Nanning flight I could immediatly feel the horrible humidity and heat. It makes people go crazy easily. Even Vietnamese in the past could not live in areas in the middle of Vietnam (1000 years ago). But I guess after several generations of settlement the weather just improved.
Contrary to Vietnam, the Pearl Delta is easier to live because it has many rivers. Especially the area south of Guangzhou used to be mashland. Other areas may get hot and humid like Vietnam.
I wonder if China really wants Vietnam "back"? There is a theory that China looks like a rooster which lacks 1 leg (imply Taiwan) so they need that leg back to run faster.
Both Vietnamese and Korean seem to like to claim their ancestral home in China but at the same time they are anti-chinese because of Chinese chauvinism and more importantly because of economic competition.
Vietnam and China right now have some minor border conflicts as well as oil resources in the South China Sea.

Edited by AhMan, 05 July 2005 - 01:54 PM.

[qrasy]

How then did the troops from Han etc. dynasties acclimatised to the regions like Yunnan etc which were similarly heavily forested/jungles, with high humidity etc. and marshlands?

By the way don't you think conquering Tibet was more difficult?

[snowybeagle]

By the way don't you think conquering Tibet was more difficult?

Of course, which was why Tibet remained unconquered from the Central Plains for a long long time.

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

The "original Vietnam" which is the north (1/3 or 1/4 the Vietnam's now) is not full of jungle as you think. The climate and geography of the original Vietnam is similiar to Guangdong, and due to be in the costal, it's not that that hot.

I think the Vietnam War gave out the idea that Vietnam in the past was also full of jungle, but the north didn't have that much of jungles.

that's not the point why China gave up Vietnam. They gave it up b/c the civilians were aware of their own Yue traditions and the rules of China. When they ruled Vietnam, most of the time the taxes, women, and resources were taken to China, which did not make much sense. The most important part was that the Yue were never in consideration as an ethnic group as other ethnic groups. They tried to convinced the Vietnamese to be the Hans descendents, sorry, no success on that small region, despite the large territory became converted.

[Sephodwyrm]

Actually, the Yue people considered themselves to be the descendants of Great Yu, and the Han were simply what waited in line to inherit their share of the kingdom (China). This puts the Yue and Han on equal standing, and thus there's no reason why Yue has to submit to China (unless the capital of China is just next door and distance wise the Yue would be assimilated).

I believe that it all has to do with distance and infrastructure.

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

Actually, the Yue people considered themselves to be the descendants of Great Yu, and the Han were simply what waited in line to inherit their share of the kingdom (China). This puts the Yue and Han on equal standing, and thus there's no reason why Yue has to submit to China (unless the capital of China is just next door and distance wise the Yue would be assimilated).

I believe that it all has to do with distance and infrastructure.

Liu Bang already killed Great Yu. So you know what means

[Klamath]

I think the reasons that ancient China could not conquer and assimilate(at least can't hold for long) Korea and Vietnam, , it was because both of them fought bravely.
Frankly says,averagely Koreans were more tough than chinese in battle, and Vietnamese were more endurant while chinese was moderate and eclectic.

[jiangji]

I think the reasons that ancient China could not conquer and assimilate(at least can't hold for long) Korea and Vietnam, , it was because both of them fought bravely.
Frankly says,averagely Koreans were more tough than chinese in battle, and Vietnamese were more endurant while chinese was moderate and eclectic.

Any evidence to show that average Korean are much tougher than the chinese battle ?

[lobster]

Liu Bang already killed Great Yu.  So you know what means

You don't even know who Great Yu is.

[USC]

that's not the point why China gave up Vietnam.  They gave it up b/c the civilians were aware of their own Yue traditions and the rules of China.  When they ruled Vietnam, most of the time the taxes, women, and resources were taken to China, which did not make much sense.  The most important part was that the Yue were never in consideration as an ethnic group as other ethnic groups.  They tried to convinced the Vietnamese to be the Hans descendents, sorry, no success on that small region, despite the large territory became converted.

I think China did not want to "give up" Vietnam, but simply the Qing lost the Sino French war during 1867-1884??
Most imperialist(include British & Jpn) at that time practise such don't they??