68 replies to this topic

[华夏帝国]

savage and wild coz

unlike their chinese counterparts, these people ride horses and are not agriculturalist. so if u duno how to plough the land u would not know abt diet, medicine, agriculture and basically, sedentary culture that leads to civilisation. U just eat meat by slaughtering or hunted or by pillaging. The geographical terrain theu live is also not very ideal, very cold or mountainous. and then u need to artesans, pottery makes, farmers, herbalist, doctors, mill workers, weapon handlers etc in order to import advanced culture from the Central Plains. Otherwise they will just sit in circles facing a bonfire behind tents, singing, dancing and drinking and merry-making. That is primitive.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"Tang cannot even defeat Koguryo on its own. It had to seek help from another Korean kingdom Silla. Three invasions by Tang Taizong all failed. Koguryo collapsed only after Silla helped Tang in a two-front war. A state facing a two-front war, just like Germany in WWII, will encounter severe difficulties in beating opponents on both flanks. "

Except, that in the senario of ww2, Germany was the invading force, while the vice versa was true of the Korean war. As for failure, the first invasion was semi successful, it achieved the goal of lifting pressure off of Silla and taking several cities.


"Ever heard of Silla's Hwarangdo? These warriors were highly trained in religious and military conduct, ethics, and physical training. They swam icy rivers in the coldest winters, toughened their bodies through rigorous martial arts training in the mountains, and were ruthless against enemy soldiers. Hwarangdo warriors can kill an enemy soldier or commander with one lethal flying kick. They made the Tang Chinese soldiers look like sissies in comparison. "

Whether Silla even defeated Tang is still debated by historians. Both sides mention victories. The fact that Tang withdrew is rather due to the Tibetan menace than Silla strength. And even then, Tang still retained the northern most of the Korean Peninsula.

As for Koguryo, Tang only lost one battle out of dozens on the field. In most of the large battles Tang troops were severely outnumbered such as An Shi. The only reason why Tang troops couldn't conquer Koguryo is logistics due to the terrain, and siege battles. Sieges of the day greatly favour the defenders rather than the offenders. It wasn't just Korea, in China itself, there were heavy reverses between the warring kingdoms after the Sui's collapse due to the fact that the invading army lost from terrain and siege disadvantage.

[Gubook Janggoon]

savage and wild coz

unlike their chinese counterparts, these people ride horses and are not agriculturalist. so if u duno how to plough the land u would not know abt diet, medicine, agriculture and basically, sedentary culture that leads to civilisation. U just eat meat by slaughtering or hunted or by pillaging. The geographical terrain theu live is also not very ideal, very cold or mountainous. and then u need to artesans, pottery makes, farmers, herbalist, doctors, mill workers, weapon handlers etc in order to import advanced culture from the Central Plains. Otherwise they will just sit in circles facing a bonfire behind tents, singing, dancing and drinking and merry-making. That is primitive.

The Chinese rode horses too. : l Or are you claiming that Koreans ( I don't know anything about Vietnam) were nomads, because that would be false statement, at least by the time of the Three Kingdoms period. These were agricultural peoples.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Sissies! LMFAO! You have to be joking! Korea completely lost it's martial spirit after Koguryo was defeated. I'm sure if they were as good as you say, Korea would not have needed to hire several hundred thousand nomad auxillaries to fight the Tang.

I agree that Bhchao's view of the Hwarang is an over-estimation, but was that reply really necessary?

Conan you're usually very calm and academic in the forum, this was very uncharacteristic of you. :l

As for you claim that Korea lost its martial spirit. That's ridiculous. You have Barhae conducting raids on Tang and expanding into what is now the Liaoning region and there were even plans in Goryeo and Joseon to invade China. The fact that Shilla actually fought against Tang (I'm not saying they kicked Tang out. That's a totally different discussion) and didn't get massacred shows that they could stand their own.

I'd like to learn more about those nomadic auxillaries though.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Oh yeah. According to "The army of Tang China" a very large percentage of both the Korean and Chinese forces during the Tang's first invasion of Korea were nomads.

Does it mention which nomads?

[Gubook Janggoon]

^^^

Ah, thank you. :]

Does anyone have an idea to what the Mohoe warriors would be wearing or using in terms of armour and weapons? I'm also assuming by labeling them as auxillaries, they're not a regular part of the Goguryeoan army itslf.

[bhchao]

Sissies! LMFAO! You have to be joking! Korea completely lost it's martial spirit after Koguryo was defeated. I'm sure if they were as good as you say, Korea would not have needed to hire several hundred thousand nomad auxillaries to fight the Tang(although for what it's worth, a large part of the Tang force was also comprised of nomad auxillaries)

I don't deny Koguryo was formidable, but Come on!

Ok maybe I overestimated the strength of the Hwarang. But many Hwarang warriors did take part in battles between Silla and Tang.

Regarding your comment about Korea completely losing its martial spirit after the fall of Koguryo, that's total nonsense. Then how do you explain Silla's successful efforts in pushing Tang all the way back to the Taedonggang River?

Right after Koguryo fell and it was obvious that Tang wanted to subjugate Silla as well, Silla organized resistance groups in Tang-controlled territory and showed its determination to drive out the Chinese. General Kim Yu-shin succeeded in beating the Tang army at Maech'o Fortress near Yanggu and the Ch'ionsong fortress at the Yesonggang river near Kaesong.

And in 671, Silla drove out the Tang Chinese administration from Paekche and took over the administration themselves.

A lot of Goguryeons defected to Silla (rather than be forced to relocate to China) and joined the Silla-led effort to oust Tang Chinese forces from the peninsula.

This could hardly be called a lack of martial spirit! In fact it was the beginning of a cohesive national identity. It takes determination and willpower to drive out Tang from most of the peninsula and regain Koguryo territory all the way to the Taedonggang (the site of present-day Pyongyang) at the height of Tang military prowess.

If Koreans willingly submitted to Tang and not bother to put up any resistance, then there would be no Korea today. Korea would be a province of China today instead.

Edited by bhchao, 13 September 2005 - 01:36 PM.

[WangKon936]

If Tang had went "all out" on Korea, there probably wouldn't be a Korean people or national identity as we know of it today.

Well, the Sui went all out (or overboard, depending on your point of view) and in trying to conquer Koguryo and look what happened to them .

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

On the other hand, the Yue Nan was in the Chinese hand for a thousand years. The Yue could not be erased. Conquerring does not necessarily mean permanently erasing the Yue identity.

[qrasy]

On the other hand, the Yue Nan was in the Chinese hand for a thousand years. The Yue could not be erased. Conquerring does not necessarily mean permanently erasing the Yue identity.

Well, 越南 "Yue Nan" was never long in Chinese hands. (perhaps the 20 year (?) Ming domination the place is already called 越南?) If you refer to what is now (Northern part of) Vietnam, the place was called 交趾 ("Jiao Zhi") or 安南 ("An Nan")

Edited by qrasy, 22 October 2005 - 03:10 AM.

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

Well, 越南 "Yue Nan" was never long in Chinese hands. (perhaps the 20 year (?) Ming domination the place is already called 越南?) If you refer to what is now (Northern part of) Vietnam, the place was called 交趾 ("Jiao Zhi") or 安南 ("An Nan")

交趾 was named by the Han Chinese but Vietnamese are actually and originally 越南 "Yue Nan". Come on grasy! Yue Nan were true descendents of Bai Yue. Why did the Han Chinese promote the Han too much up to a point that 越南 "Yue Nan" was already forgetful.