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Han and The Romans, which was more tech advanced?


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#166 mariusj

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 02:10 PM

The contrast was this. The Han dynasty cosmological city plan was enforced by its elite creators so nobody dared build away from designated cordoned off areas. In other words no collective intellect was consulted on the ways of going about this cosmological city plan. Why in the world did there have to be 9 gates from north to south? On the other hand there was no Roman cosmological city plan. The collective response could come about through repeated experimental building to define what looked good and what suited well for cordoning off certain areas from others.

Examples?
I don't like how I would bring up concrete examples, and you would go back to rephrase your original argument.
I don't know where you get your information on 9 gates from, because PLENTY of cities have more or fewer gates, and often NOT from N to S.

And if the Roman Emperor gave his official a city plan, you think people are going to say NO?

I have also suggested this. Their impermanence is a contingent feature due to their construction with wooden materials. Areas once occupied could have seen disuse and then reoccupied for other purposes. Wooden materials could be shifted, recycled. Faster rate of decay due to wooden construction also meant routine renovation but changes were all confined to the cosmological city plan. The diagram is missing but look here: http://en.wikipedia...._urban_planning

WHAT COSMOLOGICAL CITY PLAN? The writer of that page have NO clue what they are talking about.
The 9 square? Its from the concept of 井田. The reason why people love that? Because its the fairest taxation system they can think of. Notice the word 井?

Just because people read in to 'cosmological' things DOES not mean that is what it was. People read into plenty of aliens landing does not mean that is what it is.



Vitruvius did write a treatise on architecture. Why didn't Han dynasty write similar? because technological treatise would be entirely subject to constant review and they didn't want that. Han dynasty syncretized a lot of opposing ideas like taking a bit of this and that at a buffet rather than subjecting them to criticism. It would add more work load to the syncretization process. To the Han Chinese it was okay that you were a Confucianist but at the same time a Daoist and also a Buddhist but also a legalist. They felt "secure" in whatever there was while the Greeks which influenced the Romans had a knack of making very detailed distinctions.

Again, JUST because you never read them does not mean they don't exists.
A failure to understand BASIC Chinese text structure is your fault. Stop assuming.
Just because the category Jin is more famous DOES NOT mean there are no other. Chinese divide text into Jin, the classics, Shi, the histories, Zi, treaties, Ji, the collections.

自《六经》以外,立说者皆子书也。其初亦相淆,自《七略》区而列之,名品乃定;其初亦相轧,自董仲舒别而白之,醇驳乃分。其中或佚不传,或传而后莫为继,或古无其目而今增,古各为类而今合,大都篇帙繁富,可以自为部分者。儒家之外,有兵家,有法家,有农家,有医家,有天文算法,有术数,有艺术,有谱录,有杂家,有类书,有小说家;其别教则有释家,有道家。叙而次之,凡十四类。

Aside from the Six Classics, all others belong to Zi. At first it was quite confusing, from the QiLue, we can then categorize it..... Aside from Confucian text, there are those on art of war, the legalism, those about farming, those about doctoring, those about astronomy, those on mathematics, those are arts, those on music...... A total of 14 categories.


It's like with the city planning. The Han dynasty people won't think that anything is wrong with their city due to a "security" they feel. It's cosmological and correct. Yes it may be correct for half of the time but for the other half there may be little consideration. Every other city is like it why change? But if they would understand that there can't be a one size fits all solution then they'd understand how to resolve the issue of their cities. Instead of going for replacement of ideas replacement of the royal family was pursued.

Actually, every other city is not like it. Where do you get your source?
The Chinese understand plenty that there isn't a one solution solve all.


You should really address my arguments, for example, your claim of a collective intellect. The Romans DON'T have a collective intellect; they might at some areas, perhaps at construction, but definitely not at philosophy, religion, government, etc. Just because you saw one area of something DOES NOT mean you can generalize to all other areas especially when these areas have been stated by my examples.

Edited by mariusj, 21 April 2011 - 02:10 PM.


#167 mohistManiac

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 04:12 PM

Examples?
I don't like how I would bring up concrete examples, and you would go back to rephrase your original argument.
I don't know where you get your information on 9 gates from, because PLENTY of cities have more or fewer gates, and often NOT from N to S.

And if the Roman Emperor gave his official a city plan, you think people are going to say NO?

I've been giving information that is more less basic but you still ask for more examples. I've only read that the Chinese were basing their cities on feng shui practices, cosmological symbolisms and numerologies which had an effect on the way they thought and behave according to seasonal ritual. I'm sure there are numerous evidences but I've yet to make a record of them. An obvious one is the Forbidden city which use gates with 9 rows metallic studs.

WHAT COSMOLOGICAL CITY PLAN? The writer of that page have NO clue what they are talking about.
The 9 square? Its from the concept of 井田. The reason why people love that? Because its the fairest taxation system they can think of. Notice the word 井?

Just because people read in to 'cosmological' things DOES not mean that is what it was. People read into plenty of aliens landing does not mean that is what it is.

The Han dynasty people were possibly inheriting many things which may have lost whatever typical significances they once had but used them anyway to create political legitimacy. An example would be like those Shang bronzes and why they have crazy animals mask patterns on them. They could have somehow been very particularly significant on the level of status and religious symbolisms but those very exact details don't always transmit to the next generation in exactly the same ways. Meanings are lost to time only to be revived with new interpretations. That way Shang bronzes could still manifest with purpose in Zhou dynasty culture and onward to later periods as well. I too think that the ancient Chinese cities were laid out according to some intuitive scheme but it was always justified on the basis of multiples of numbers and whatnot that you couldn't deny its various cosmological properties. It's like those Renaissance paintings, typical people will just admire and ooh and ahh but they were supposedly composed based on quite fancy geometric schemes. The engineer will take a look at the city and not read too much into it but the original planners will try to convince that it was a perfect square in contrast to the heavenly perfect circle and had 9999 rooms within the central palace instead of 10000 rooms in the palace of the heavens.


Again, JUST because you never read them does not mean they don't exists.
A failure to understand BASIC Chinese text structure is your fault. Stop assuming.
Just because the category Jin is more famous DOES NOT mean there are no other. Chinese divide text into Jin, the classics, Shi, the histories, Zi, treaties, Ji, the collections.


Aside from the Six Classics, all others belong to Zi. At first it was quite confusing, from the QiLue, we can then categorize it..... Aside from Confucian text, there are those on art of war, the legalism, those about farming, those about doctoring, those about astronomy, those on mathematics, those are arts, those on music...... A total of 14 categories.


I'm just basing what I written earlier on the traditional fact that the earliest architectural treatise for China wasn't written until much later than the Han dynasty. The implication is evidently there would have been more scholars at the time of the Song which were more open to things like peer reviews. I don't know how these things worked but it seems Roman might have gotten to that stage first.

Actually, every other city is not like it. Where do you get your source?
The Chinese understand plenty that there isn't a one solution solve all.


You should really address my arguments, for example, your claim of a collective intellect. The Romans DON'T have a collective intellect; they might at some areas, perhaps at construction, but definitely not at philosophy, religion, government, etc. Just because you saw one area of something DOES NOT mean you can generalize to all other areas especially when these areas have been stated by my examples.


The archaeology showed that they had north south orientation axis. To me that sounds like the usual easter egg hunt of most of those expeditions involved with excavating another Chinese archaeological site be it palace, city or religious site. Everything elite requiring protection and control was going to be situated at the north side and the south acted as the entrance ways.

The claim of the collective intellect had more to do with how the Romans were made aware through the dynamics of the city's culture. The bath houses were a place of congregation and people from different walks of life can share ideas. It's as if they had little radios tucked into their lunch boxes and during lunch break or some time they'd go update their bulletins and then digest the information and then share the info with loved ones at the dinner table. The Han dynasty would only be able to share info with their loved ones at the dinner table.

I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.


#168 mariusj

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:21 PM

I've been giving information that is more less basic but you still ask for more examples. I've only read that the Chinese were basing their cities on feng shui practices, cosmological symbolisms and numerologies which had an effect on the way they thought and behave according to seasonal ritual. I'm sure there are numerous evidences but I've yet to make a record of them. An obvious one is the Forbidden city which use gates with 9 rows metallic studs.

Because the basic information you provide are non-factual, especially since we are talking about Han v Rome, bringing up Forbidden City is like bringing in the Third Reich to the topic [that is, Third Reich to the HRE, to Rome, as Qing to China, to Han].
Since you can't bring examples to defend your claim of Feng Shui, or cosmological whatever, let me use some examples to counter act that.
So lets talk about some cities in Han.
The capital Chang An. Chang An was built on the order of Emperor Liu Bang, advised by Liu Jin supported by Zhang Liang. The city was built around Qin capital. It has 12 gates, consists of 8 major streets.

The assumption that this have some how to do with feng shui derived from a twisted view of what feng shui and ancient Qin/Han.
In Kao Gong Ji, a book on how builders should build things, [also, an interesting read that is about something Non-Confucian and a treaties on how to build stuff.]

匠人营国,方九里,旁三门。国中九经九纬,经涂九轨,左祖右社,面朝后市,市朝一夫。夏后氏世室,堂修二七,广四修一,五室,三四步,四三尺,九阶,四旁两夹{穴怱},白盛,门堂三之二,室三之一。殷人重屋,堂修七寻,堂崇三尺,四阿重屋。周人明堂,度九尺之筵,东西九筵,南北七筵,堂崇一筵,五室,凡室二筵。室中度以几,堂上度以筵,宫中度以寻,野度以步,涂度以轨,庙门容大扃七个,闱门容小扃三个,路门不容乘车之五个,应门二彻三个。内有九室,九嫔居之。外有九室,九卿朝焉。九分其国,以为九分,九卿治之。王宫门阿之制五雉,宫隅之制七雉,城隅之制九雉,经涂九轨,环涂七轨,野涂五轨。门阿之制,以为都城之制。宫隅之制,以为诸侯之城制。环涂以为诸侯经涂,野涂以为都经涂。

So there are the number 9, but there is no justification on whether it is because it is a convenient or cosmological.

The Han dynasty people were possibly inheriting many things which may have lost whatever typical significances they once had but used them anyway to create political legitimacy. An example would be like those Shang bronzes and why they have crazy animals mask patterns on them. They could have somehow been very particularly significant on the level of status and religious symbolisms but those very exact details don't always transmit to the next generation in exactly the same ways. Meanings are lost to time only to be revived with new interpretations. That way Shang bronzes could still manifest with purpose in Zhou dynasty culture and onward to later periods as well. I too think that the ancient Chinese cities were laid out according to some intuitive scheme but it was always justified on the basis of multiples of numbers and whatnot that you couldn't deny its various cosmological properties. It's like those Renaissance paintings, typical people will just admire and ooh and ahh but they were supposedly composed based on quite fancy geometric schemes. The engineer will take a look at the city and not read too much into it but the original planners will try to convince that it was a perfect square in contrast to the heavenly perfect circle and had 9999 rooms within the central palace instead of 10000 rooms in the palace of the heavens.


Without some form of numeric or quantitative format, you can have nothing.
You think Romans don't have certain numerical cliche in their buildings? An Arc is a cliche they always used. Just because Han uses some numeric cliche, doesn't imply anything.

I'm just basing what I written earlier on the traditional fact that the earliest architectural treatise for China wasn't written until much later than the Han dynasty. The implication is evidently there would have been more scholars at the time of the Song which were more open to things like peer reviews. I don't know how these things worked but it seems Roman might have gotten to that stage first.

Then you should research what I wrote about 經子集。 

For example, 盐铁论, was the FIRST economical analysis of governmental intervention, under 子。 When was the first economical treaties on governmental influences in Europe? Richardo? Again, just because you don't read doesn't mean they don't exist.

As for architectural treaties, you should read, 周禮-冬官. It will be very enlightening. And what is a name of a Roman architectural manual?

The archaeology showed that they had north south orientation axis. To me that sounds like the usual easter egg hunt of most of those expeditions involved with excavating another Chinese archaeological site be it palace, city or religious site. Everything elite requiring protection and control was going to be situated at the north side and the south acted as the entrance ways.

Archaeology shows fact, you read into them how you want.


The claim of the collective intellect had more to do with how the Romans were made aware through the dynamics of the city's culture. The bath houses were a place of congregation and people from different walks of life can share ideas.

If you think a senator will bath with a carpenter, then I have no idea to further communicate.

It's as if they had little radios tucked into their lunch boxes and during lunch break or some time they'd go update their bulletins and then digest the information and then share the info with loved ones at the dinner table. The Han dynasty would only be able to share info with their loved ones at the dinner table.

We already have this argument. Just because you don't think much of what 市集 does doesn't actually mean it does nothing.
Your view of Han China is almost like a repressive slave group that don't get to communicate. I have no idea how you get to them.

#169 mohistManiac

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 01:19 AM

Because the basic information you provide are non-factual, especially since we are talking about Han v Rome, bringing up Forbidden City is like bringing in the Third Reich to the topic [that is, Third Reich to the HRE, to Rome, as Qing to China, to Han].
Since you can't bring examples to defend your claim of Feng Shui, or cosmological whatever, let me use some examples to counter act that.
So lets talk about some cities in Han.
The capital Chang An. Chang An was built on the order of Emperor Liu Bang, advised by Liu Jin supported by Zhang Liang. The city was built around Qin capital. It has 12 gates, consists of 8 major streets.

The assumption that this have some how to do with feng shui derived from a twisted view of what feng shui and ancient Qin/Han.
In Kao Gong Ji, a book on how builders should build things, [also, an interesting read that is about something Non-Confucian and a treaties on how to build stuff.]

So there are the number 9, but there is no justification on whether it is because it is a convenient or cosmological.


Without some form of numeric or quantitative format, you can have nothing.
You think Romans don't have certain numerical cliche in their buildings? An Arc is a cliche they always used. Just because Han uses some numeric cliche, doesn't imply anything.


Then you should research what I wrote about 經子集。 

For example, 盐铁论, was the FIRST economical analysis of governmental intervention, under 子。 When was the first economical treaties on governmental influences in Europe? Richardo? Again, just because you don't read doesn't mean they don't exist.

As for architectural treaties, you should read, 周禮-冬官. It will be very enlightening. And what is a name of a Roman architectural manual?


Archaeology shows fact, you read into them how you want.



If you think a senator will bath with a carpenter, then I have no idea to further communicate.


We already have this argument. Just because you don't think much of what 市集 does doesn't actually mean it does nothing.
Your view of Han China is almost like a repressive slave group that don't get to communicate. I have no idea how you get to them.


Impressive knowledge. Thanks for the reading recommendations.

I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.


#170 TheAznValedictorian

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 12:58 AM

I would like to correct a person named Sindee about a quote:
Sindee to Tibet Libre

And one more thing, the Han dynasty did have many imperial circuses, so someone really needs to do abit more research.

http://www.chinahist...ost__p__5001635

I pretty much agree with your arguments against Tibet Libre's position but I would have to correct you on this one. You are right in one sense; there certainly were acrobatic and animal shows during Han Dynasty.
However, that is not what people meant when they are talking about Roman Cicuses. Roman Circuses were actually chariot racing tracks with rising stone seats. The largest one, I think, was the Circus Maximus
http://en.wikipedia..../Circus_Maximus
http://www.rome-guid...us_maximus.html

In this sense, I don't think any that Roman type Circuses existed during Han times, especially the ones that can accomodate up to 250,000 (or 300,000) people. I could be wrong though.

Edited by TheAznValedictorian, 24 April 2011 - 01:30 AM.

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#171 mariusj

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 04:31 AM

Is there any race tracks in ancient China?

I know there are often competition on horsemanship, but not sure about racing / speed.

#172 oldbreadstinks

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 12:01 PM

Is there any race tracks in ancient China?

I know there are often competition on horsemanship, but not sure about racing / speed.


wasn't there private races in spring authumn period? or was it warring states? I recalled there was a passage regarding two noblemen racing one another with chariots. pitting three horses against each other. the one with inferior horses kept losing til advised to match his best against the opponent's second and second against the opponent's third.

#173 mariusj

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 05:27 PM

So second question.

When I was a kid, I remember the story about 田忌賽馬, and in that story it straight up say they are racing. After you mention it, I went back to Shiji and check, and I came to the question.
In Shiji, Book of Suzi-Wuqi

齐将田忌善而客待之。忌数与齐诸公子驰逐重射。孙子见其马足不甚相远,马有上、中、下、辈。於是孙子谓田忌曰:“君弟重射,臣能令君胜。”田忌信然之,与王及诸公子逐射千金。



I realize this might not about racing but more on shooting.

索隐 弟,但也。重射谓好射也。

So I don't know, is it horse racing, or horse archery?

#174 Fornadan

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 07:56 PM

For example, 盐铁论, was the FIRST economical analysis of governmental intervention, under 子。 When was the first economical treaties on governmental influences in Europe? Richardo?


There's a treatise on economics traditionally attributed to Aristotle, but which may in fact have been written by one of his students, or his successor's students, so a creation date of 300 BC, give or take a couple of decades

http://en.wikipedia....mics_(Aristotle)




Racing seems to be an intrinsic part of human nature, something you can find anywhere, in all cultures, so trying to figure out who started it seems kind of pointless. If I were to hazard a guess, I would expect the first horse race to have been held pretty soon after the two first persons learnt to ride. (and you don't need more than two sticks to make a race track)

Edited by Fornadan, 25 April 2011 - 08:09 PM.


#175 mariusj

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:09 PM

There's a treatise on economics traditionally attributed to Aristotle, but which may in fact have been written by one of his students, or his successor's students, so a creation date of 300 BC, give or take a couple of decades

http://en.wikipedia....mics_(Aristotle)




Racing seems to be an intrinsic part of human nature, something you can find anywhere, in all cultures, so trying to figure out who started it seems kind of pointless. If I were to hazard a guess, I would expect the first horse race to have been held pretty soon after the two first persons learnt to ride. (and you don't need more than two sticks to make a race track)

From Wiki [several different pages]

Economics (Latin Oeconomica, Greek Οἰκονομικων) is a work that has been ascribed to Aristotle. It is usually attributed, by modern scholars, to a student of Aristotle, or to a student of his successor Theophrastus.

The Oeconomicus by Xenophon is a Socratic dialogue principally about household management and agriculture. It is one of the earliest works on economics in its original sense of household management, and a significant source for the social and intellectual history of classic Athens.

Recently the dialogue has received much attention from disparate intellectual traditions. Leo Strauss wrote a political-philosophical commentary on the dialogue. Foucault took Xenophon's depiction of the relationship between Ischomachus and his wife as a classical expression of the ancient Greek ideology of power, according to which a man's control of his emotions was externally reflected in his control of his wife, his slaves, and his political subordinates. Strauss took the Oeconomicus as a more ironic examination of the nature of the gentleman, virtue, and domestic relationships.



These are not economic treaties. A treaties attempts to explain an casual effect, if price change, what happen to supply and demand, etc. This seems more interested in defining wealth, and what creates wealth, which plenty of people discuss it, and personally not very interesting in economic terms.

On the other hand, Yan-Tie lun is far more focus, on what to do will cause what effect and how/why it will be desirable.

For example, the introduction chapter of Yan-Tie.

It is between several people defending different views.
For example, the scholars said

窃闻治人之道,防淫佚之原,广道德之端,抑末利而开仁义,毋示以利,然后教化可兴,而风俗可移也。今郡国有盐、铁、酒榷,均输,与民争利。散敦厚之朴,成贪鄙之化。是以百姓就本者寡,趋末者众。夫文繁则质衰,末盛则本亏。末修则民淫,本修则民悫。民悫则财用足,民侈则饥寒生。愿罢盐、铁、酒榷、均输,所以进本退末,广利农业,便也。

In simple terms, it says

We heard the ways to rule the people, is to prevent the source of excessive enjoyment, and led people to be more virtuous, to slow down the manufacturing and merchants while spreading the what is Ren and what is Yi, do not led them through wealth and gains, this way the virtuous sage way can be found, and this atmosphere of corruption can be changed. Currently, all the countries have governmental monopolies on salt,and iron production, alcohol selling monopolies, fighting for the people for monetary gains. This led people to forgot about honesty, and have urges of deception. Therefore, the commoners farm less, trade more. The more gorgeous the appearance, the quicker the inside corrupts. The more common place manufacturing and trading is, the weaker farming is. The stronger trading and manufacturing, the more extravagant people are, the stronger farming is, people are more honest. The more honest people are, the more plenty their available resources, the more extravagant, hunger and cold will be more common. Therefore we hope to remove governmental monopolies, increase farming out put, limit manufacturing, this way farming will be more plentiful.


The opening statement is very clear. The goal, the method, and the reason why was explained.
Why is it that governmental monopolies are harmful, and what could the government get from removing them.


Then, the officals said.

匈奴背叛不臣,数为寇暴于边鄙,备之则劳中国之士,不备则侵盗不止。先帝哀边人之久患,苦为虏所系获也,故修障塞。饬烽燧,屯戍以备之。边用度不足,故兴盐、铁,设酒榷,置均输,蕃货长财,以佐助边费。今议者欲罢之,内空府库之藏,外乏执备之用,使备塞乘城之士饥寒于边,将何以赡之?罢之,不便也。

In simple terms it said,

The Xiongnus often attack and betray treaties. To raise troops to defend that, will bring hardship to the people; but if you do not defend it, they will continue to raid you. His Majesty the previous Emperor pity that people living at the frontiers, constantly under threat and raid, therefore he built numerous forts, strengthen the great wall and the lighting towers, and station troops and Garrison farming to protect the people. However, the frontier defense cost an enormous amount of money, therefore to raise such money was there monopolies, to increase governmental income and supplement frontier defense. If you get ride of these, the treasury will be empty, and there will not be enough funding for frontier, and troops will starve and be cold, what will this nation provide them? Removing these monopolies are very complicated.

The defense is very simple, while these add on taxes may be inconvenient to the general population, it is necessary for national defense.


孔子曰:“有国有家者,不患寡而患不均,不患贫而患不安。”故天子不言多少,诸侯不言利害,大夫不言得丧。畜仁义以风之,广德行以怀之。是以近者亲附而远者悦服。故善克者不战,善战者不师,善师者不阵。修之于庙堂,而折冲还师。王者行仁政,无敌于天下,恶用费哉?


Scholars replied

Confucius said, the various nobles, should not worry about lack of land but rather should worry about uneven distribution, do not worry about lack of funding but worry about unrest. Therefore the divine son should not worry about how much fund he has, the lords should not speak about benefits and harms, and the nobilities should not speak of gains and losses. They should instead use Ren and Yi to teach the people, so that when virtue reaches them. Then will those who are close will come join them and those who are far will accept their decisions. SO those who can defeat the enemy will not need to battle, those who can fight battles will not need to mobilize their army, and those who led the armies should not worry about formation. If the court can have good governance, the enemies will not fight them. The wise Emperor who commits kind governance, will be invincible, why worry about funding?

-----------------

So its more than just general economics, but rather a deeper observation and theory about what government can do that changes and accomplishes certain goal.

#176 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 10:48 PM

I have a little difference in understanding. While a great majority of the Roman defined territories must have had only subsistence level populations it could easily be said the remainder of the populations living in Roman style cities had a superior lifestyle in terms of luxury when compared to the Han dynasty people in their cities. Although it may be a shallow judgement the Romans in cities did enjoy the benefits of having lots of water such as baths and toilets which implies that they were to a degree healthier.

As for the records of the mercury pools in Qin Shi Huang's mausoleum they were placed only for someone who has died and didn't offer living benefits whatever that may be so basically that's the difference. What may be confusing is that everyone who took part in the construction were supposed to have kept their mouth shut about the secrets one way or another but the existence of the record presents a problem.



From a macro economic perspective, wider per capita gap is not a sign of wealth, it is a symbol of an unhealthy economy. This is especially true when Urban Roman population probably didn't surpass 5% of the entire empire(and thats not even including the lowest of the classes which could not enjoy such facilities) while the slave population is at least twice that amount.

By the standards of Marxist history, the Roman economy was formally labeled as the slave mode of production while the Han economy was already in the feudal mode of production(based on land privitization and free peasants) and hence the later is actually in a further stage of development in history(there are five stages in Marxist history) in terms of class structure. However, this standard doesn't really reflect wealth and it is nothing more than a theory.

Furthermore, it is very clear that some of Tibet Libre's own categories are of the same nature as the mercury streams which he labeled as a "bogus category". For example:



Number of triumphal arches
Rome: dozens
Han China: none

Number of obelisks
Rome: 5
Han China: none

Number of monoliths moved over 100 t
Rome: dozens
Han China: none




None of these are really beneficial to the population at large, urbanized or not. But I don't believe technology needs to be measured based on how it was available to the general public.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 27 April 2011 - 12:03 AM.


#177 Guaporense

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 01:28 PM

From a macro economic perspective, wider per capita gap is not a sign of wealth, it is a symbol of an unhealthy economy. This is especially true when Urban Roman population probably didn't surpass 5% of the entire empire(and thats not even including the lowest of the classes which could not enjoy such facilities) while the slave population is at least twice that amount.


The 5% figure was the estimated rate of urbanization of Europe and China during the Middle Ages, according to this:

Posted Image
(however, I don't put much faith the accuracy of these estimates for China, while European estimates are better, as we have better data)

While the urban population of the Roman Empire surely was larger than 5% of the population of the entire empire. The city of Rome alone had 1.5-2% of the population of the entire empire, summing up with the other 4 major cities we get almost 5%, just with the cities numbering into hundreds of thousands. And there were many small cities in the empire, about 2,000 urban centers, Italy alone had 430 urban centers.

The Roman Empire was different from other pre-industrial empires in that it was an empire of cities around the mediterranean sea. It consisted of a network of cities, headed by the city of Rome. As result the Romans were a people of urban culture.

So what was the rate of urbanization of the Roman Empire? We don't know. We have rought estimates of the rate of urbanization of certain regions of the empire, according to the book City and Hinterland, Roman Italy had a rate of urbanization of 40% counting all the towns over 1,000 inhabitants, while Roman Egypt had a rate of urbanization between 25 to 35%, counting only the nome capitals. A more rigorous estimate puts the rate of urbanization at 43% at the North African island or Jerba, using field survey methods, and 14% of the Italian valley of Albegna, at the 1st century CE (the average is 28.5%). Those rates of urbanization are very high for pre-modern societies (the 40% rate of urbanization for Roman Italy is actually higher than any part of the world in the 18th century, including England and the Netherlands). In the book, Quantifying the Roman Economy, professor Los Cascio even though that these rates of urbanization were apparently too high to be true for a pre-industrial economy.

It would be theoretically possible for the Roman Empire to have a low rate of urbanization only if we assume that all the regions we have analized were exceptional, but how scientific is that? If all the evidence points out to a high rate of urbanization, why should we assume a low rate of urbanization? Overall, Classical Greece and the mediterranean provinces of the Early Roman Empire appear to have attained a rate of urbanization around 30%, counting only towns and cities over 5,000 inhabitants.

The rate of urbanization data suggests that the Roman economy was productive and efficient if compared to other pre-industrial economies. While by modern standards a rate of urbanization of circa 30% is the average for Africa. So we must understand that from modern standards, all pre-modern economies were very inneficient and living standards were oftem below what we consider today the minimum standards for subsistence.

Still the average size of escavated houses in Graeco-Roman cities from the 4th century BCE to the 1st century CE (from Olynthus, Priene in Classical Greece, to Dura Europus, in Seleucid Syria, to Pompeii and Herculaneum in Roman Italy), show that the average Classical house was larger than the average American house today! That's truly an impressive achievement. While huts and other signs of subsistence level living standards are rare for Greece in the 4th century BCE or Roman Italy in the 1st century CE (which represented respectively, the zenith periods of Greek and Roman civilizations). The median house size in 4th century BCE Greece was 240 square meters, in the first floor, Ian Morris estimates that about 50% of the houses had second floors, so the total median floor area was about 360 square meters, houses in Roman Italy were similar in size, but had more sophisticated decoration (on average, the houses in Pompeii and Herculaneum had 270 square meters and 8 rooms per house, and 60% of the houses in Pompeii and Herculaneum had decorated plastered walls, on average 5 decorated rooms per house). Still, Hadrill, the author of Houses and Society in Pompeii and Herculaneum, thinks that such luxurious living standards in Roman Italy were only possible thanks to the imperial extraction of income from the provinces.

The empire as a whole was poorer than Italy or classical Greece and there were great differences in the degree of development between the regions of the empire. For example, Britain was much poorer than Egypt and even wage data supports such theory: In Italy annual wages for unskilled workers were equivalent to about 3,000 kgs of wheat (data points ranges from 5,000 to 1,300 kg), in Egypt, wages were equivalent to 1,500 kg of wheat and in the recently conquered province of Dacia, annual wages were only equivalent to 800 kg of wheat. A family of 4 usually consumed 600-700 kg of wheat per year, so annual incomes of 800 kg of wheat were only enought to purchase the needed wheat plus some complementary foodstuffs. The average sizes of houses also show the same behavior, in Roman Italy houses had 270 square meters, in Roman Egpyt, 60 square meters and in Dacia most of the population still lived inside huts of 15-20 square meters. This huge difference can be undertood from the fact that in Dacia all income had to be spent on food, while in Italy, since there weren't many different goods beyond food and housing, people spent their substantial income above subsistence on housing.

I also advice to not use such adjectives as "unhealthy economy", to a polity that existed for 500 years, such broad characterizations don't make much sense. All the data I have posted here refers to the conditions of the Early Roman Empire (mostly from Augustus to Trajan). The Late Roman Empire was much less urbanized and developed than the Early Roman Empire, all archeological data suggests that population density decreased in all regions of the empire, while the western regions suffered the greatest decline, and the volume of trade and the production of commodities also show a decline in the eastern regions. The economy of the empire became less market oriented and less of a pan-mediterranean integrated economic system to a system of self sufficient villas. The peasants working in those villas became tied to the land and these are ultimately the origins of serfdom.

The 5% figure for the rate of urbanizaion in the Roman Empire may apply to the Empire around 400 CE, at the time of the barbarian invasions, when the clasiscal Graeco-Roman civilization was already dead inside.

By the standards of Marxist history, the Roman economy was formally labeled as the slave mode of production while the Han economy was already in the feudal mode of production(based on land privitization and free peasants) and hence the later is actually in a further stage of development in history(there are five stages in Marxist history) in terms of class structure. However, this standard doesn't really reflect wealth and it is nothing more than a theory.


Marxism is not only a theory, it is pretty much a dead theory, since it's economic foundations were decisively refuted already in the 1890's by Böhn-Bawerk. Why Marxism persists? Well, because Marxism is really a religion among some social scientists. The mechanical model where society progresses from slavery, to serfdom, to capitalism to socialism is ridiculous when one thinks about it. It is also based on western history, from the ancients to the modern times, but western history is not a history of constant progress, but of periods of progress, like the period from 800 BCE to 100 CE, and periods of decline and collapse, like from 100 CE to 700 CE. We can even consider the civilization of the ancient Graeco-Romans to be a distinct civilization from modern European civilization. Modern Western civilization emerged from the ruins of the ancients.

Slavery strictu sensu is the state were persons can be brought and sold as private property in the slave market. It is actually a quite sophisticated form of unfree labor. Serfdom consists of laborers tied to the land, hence there is no market for serfs and the serfs are de facto slaves of the manor, but the manor doesn't buy and sell them. So it can be actually understood as a more primitive form of slavery. A form of fixed slavery. It is less effiecient than slavery because slaves tend to be allocated where they are most productive, while serfs are tied to their occupation.

Also, in medieval europe the vast majority of the population consisted of serfs and in the Roman Empire only a minority of the population of the roman empire consisted of slaves. One has to take that into account as well. If we assume that serfdom is more advanced than slavery but less advanced tham free labor, a society with 80% free laborers and 20% slaves is not necessarily less advanced than a society with 90% serfs and 10% free laborers.

None of these are really beneficial to the population at large, urbanized or not. But I don't believe technology needs to be measured based on how it was available to the general public.


These facts are a rought indicator of the engineering capabilities of a society. They don't mean anything directly, like the fact that the US put the men on the moon while Nigeria didn't doest necessarily mean that the US has better living standards than Nigeria. Japan and Germany don't have living standards significantly inferior to the USA's, but they didn't put the men on the moon.

Overall, Roman civil engineering was more advanced than 18th century Europe and the mediterranean parts of the Early Roman Empire were also more urbanized than 18th century Europe. Archeological evidence also shows that living standards in the Early Roman Empire were probably better than 18th century Europe, at least in Italy and the Aegean regions.

While I am not very much aquainted with the economic history of China (in fact, I don't think there has been much serious research about the economic history of China, serious study of Western Ancient Economic history, using archeological and quantitative evidence, has just started), the evidence that I have indicate that Han China was less sophisticated in terms of economic development than Classical Greece and the mediterranean provinces of the Early Roman Empire. Perhaps Song China was more comparable, as they had already developed a large canal network, that could mimic the beneficial properties of the mediterranean sea. The basis for the social development achieved by the classicals was the mediterranean sea, which allowed the cheap transportation of goods and therefore allowed a unified pan-mediterranean economy (exemplified by the fact that Athens imported most of their food, though their port, and that Roman Carthage had it's buildings made of bricks imported from Italy, hundreds of miles away), that allowed the division of labor of the working populations of the entire mediterranean basin.

An interesting set of papers in the economy of classical Greece has been recently presented in Athens in september 2010:
Economy of classical Greece

Edited by Guaporense, 04 July 2011 - 02:25 PM.


#178 mohistManiac

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 02:42 PM

So what was the rate of urbanization of the Roman Empire? We don't know. We have rought estimates of the rate of urbanization of certain regions of the empire, according to the book City and Hinterland, Roman Italy had a rate of urbanization of 40% counting all the towns over 1,000 inhabitants, while Roman Egypt had a rate of urbanization between 25 to 35%, counting only the nome capitals.


I think there are different urbanization scenarios to think of. The highest rates of urbanization are usually references pointing to some strategically placed administrative areas and the other key natural economic areas of concentration which create a support system. Money and resources flow into these places and are thus considered exceptional. A town with over 1000 inhabitants but not necessarily hitting a 10,000 mark might not even have been noticed on the wider trading network and so its contribution to the maintenance of a wealthy economy and the overall social hierarchies may be highly limited. However it's not a surprise that 40 percent urbanization would sound right for Roman Italy since its areas were indeed closest to Rome than all other provinces. Rome I'm guessing was the major center of where all the conspicuous consumption ended up like the silks and other exotic goods coming through the silk route. A field survey would indeed show settlement patterns that fundamentally characterize the higher degrees of urbanization as one enters into closer proximity with major urban centers but these patterns are highly variable and it may amaze some to know that these can rapidly shift within a matter of decades so archaeologists must also be aware of this fact.

I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.


#179 Guaporense

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 03:51 PM

I think there are different urbanization scenarios to think of. The highest rates of urbanization are usually references pointing to some strategically placed administrative areas and the other key natural economic areas of concentration which create a support system. Money and resources flow into these places and are thus considered exceptional. A town with over 1000 inhabitants but not necessarily hitting a 10,000 mark might not even have been noticed on the wider trading network and so its contribution to the maintenance of a wealthy economy and the overall social hierarchies may be highly limited. However it's not a surprise that 40 percent urbanization would sound right for Roman Italy since its areas were indeed closest to Rome than all other provinces. Rome I'm guessing was the major center of where all the conspicuous consumption ended up like the silks and other exotic goods coming through the silk route. A field survey would indeed show settlement patterns that fundamentally characterize the higher degrees of urbanization as one enters into closer proximity with major urban centers but these patterns are highly variable and it may amaze some to know that these can rapidly shift within a matter of decades so archaeologists must also be aware of this fact.


Usually people measure the rate of urbanization by counting nucleated settlements above a certain threshold. Usually scholars used 1,000 inhabitants, 5,000 inhabitants or 10,000 inhabitants. The Census of the US used 8,000 inhabitants, 4,000 inhabitatns and 2,500 inhabitants, as cut off points for their statistic of the rate of urbanization of the US.

Historically there wasn't a very fast change in the rates of urbanization in ancient and medieval times. These field survey data points on urbanization on the North African island of Jerba (43%) and the Albegna valley in Italy (14%) both refer to the period from 50 BCE to 100 CE. Urbanization rates declined in subsequent centuries, in in the 5-6th centuries CE the rate of urbanization in both regions was estimated at zero (there were not nucleated settlements over 1,000 inhabitants in both regions), while estimated population density declined greatly in both regions over the 500 year period.

The rate of urbanization can be used as a proxy for economic development. As the higher the rate of urbanization, the higher the proportion of the population not engaged directly in agriculture and the higher the degree of mercantilization of the economy and the proportion of the workforce engaged in the service and manufacturing sectors. There has been shown a very high correlation between urbanization and per capita income in modern countries:
Posted Image

There were also cultural factors for urbanization. Classical Greece consisted of a society based on city states and many farmers lived inside the cities and walked a few kilometers to their land every day. That enabled most of the population of classical Greece to live inside city walls (in the region of Boeotia in central Greece about 70% of the population lived in towns and cities). There were 1000 cities in classical Greece, nearly all of them walled, Moges Herman Hansen, in his study of Greek demography, estimated that the total walled area of all Greek cities totaled 50,000 hectares and housed a population of at least 3.5 million people, probably 5-6 million, the bulk of the population of classical Greece. During the Pax Romana there was no motive for the population to hide inside city walls and the rate of urbanization declined in the Greek parts of the Roman Empire. But that doesn't necessarily means that the these regions became poorer, only that they adjusted to a situation where there wasn't any military threat.

Roman Italy was very urbanized for 2 different reasons:

1 - The high level of economic development of the lands around the mediterranean, since Italy was a peninsula inside the mediterranean, it was obvious that it would be one of the most prosperous lands of western eurasia, if not the most prosperous.

2 - The city of Rome, with about 1 million inhabitants, had about 15% of the population of Italy. The city became so large thanks to free grain and free entertainment, provided by the taxes paid by the provinces (Italy didn't pay taxes). Egypt alone provided 140,000 tons of grain for the city of Rome annualy as taxes in kind, enough grain to feed 700,000 people, or 10% of the population of Italy That was only one of the external sources of grain of Roman Italy. So the high rate of urbanization of Italy was also a function of massive grain imports. Classical Greece also had massive grain imports, some estimates say that 35% of the food consumed in Classical Greece was imported, so their high rates of urbanization also was partly a function of the agricultural surplus of other regions.

The relative levels of economic development of the roman empire can also be gauged by looking at the ditribution of mediterranean shipwrecks, which show the rought trade routes inside the Roman Empire and therefore the relative degree of economic development:
Posted Image

Also note the relationship between the sites of shipwrecks and the formation of the empire:

Roman Republic, 60 BCE:
Posted Image

By that time the Roman Republic already conquered all the wealthy lands of Western Eurasia (Egypt also was a protectorade). The lands conquered afterwards were mostly to serve as buffer zones agaisnt the barbarian tribes. They didn't represent really important additions. Italy was probably the wealthiest and most advanced part of the world at the time, certainly the most advanced part of Western Eurasia.

Also, I should note that before the invention of the railroad in the 19th century the only cheap way of transporting goods was by sea of by canals. In the Roman Empire the costs of transportation by sea were 50-60 times smaller than by land and by canals were 10 times smaller than by land. Since advanced civilization depends on transportation, before the invention of the railroad, the only regions of the world above self subsistence economic conditions were near the sea or equipped with a canal network. The Roman roads didn't serve to develop the provinces of the empire, but to facilitate the movement of the legions.

Edited by Guaporense, 04 July 2011 - 04:12 PM.


#180 Guaporense

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 04:32 PM

I also think that I should point out that historically science didn't really influence the degree of advancement of a society. Before the late 19th century, during the so called Second Industrial Revolution, the technology used by society wasn't a result of scientific though, but of gradual advances made by artisans. Even the machinery that powered UK in the middle of the 19th century was made by artisans, not engineers or scientists. So it doesn't matter how advanced Greek science was, it didn't impact on the living standards of the general population (the only possible exception is the construction of ancient tunnels, such as Eupalinos tunnel, whose construction was made possible by advances in geometry).

Technology in Classical Greece was underdeveloped, if compared to the technology of the Roman Empire, Ancient or Medieval China or Late Medieval Europe. These civilizations used machinery in a large scale while the Greeks didn't use technology in general more advanced than Egypt or Mesopotamia in 3000 BCE. It remained pretty basic: they had agricultural tools made of bronze or iron, houses made of stones and bricks with roofs made of ceramic tiles, they had wagons and ships with sails. They didn't have paper, arabic numerals, printing press, advanced navigation technology (like compasses), advanced technology for construction of wagons, nor machinery such as water mills, windmills and clockwork mechanisms (I am talking about classical greece here, not hellenistic or roman). Still the Classical Greeks had more advanced science than the previsouly cited societies, but were primitive, technology wise.




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