74 replies to this topic

[thedamnrainman]

I killed the "who are the cantonese thread" so I wasn't sure if I wanted to add anything there.
But anyway I came with this ingenious idea. You can trace the origins of the cantonese by finding out where their un-northern vocabulary comes from.

They use words like 睇 (canto. tai) instead of 看 (mand. kan) but those are words that have meaning in both languages (I think).
What about words that were made up for specific use by the cantonese that have no meaning in northern dialects.

Like the words:
嗰 (cant. gaw/gor) instead of 的 (mand. de)
喺 (cant. hai) instead of 在 (mand. zai)
佢 (cant. kui) instead of 她 (mand. ta) <-- not sure about this one since it doesn't have the mouth character on the left I can't tell if it was a newly created character or not

but you get what I'm saying right? What language uses these words that aren't found in northern speech? Or am I not making any sense at all?

[kaixin]

They could either be indigenous Yue words or they can be words used during Tang Dynasty or earlier but can no longer be found in modern Mandarin.

[nishishei]

I killed the "who are the cantonese thread" so I wasn't sure if I wanted to add anything there.
But anyway I came with this ingenious idea. You can trace the origins of the cantonese by finding out where their un-northern vocabulary comes from.

They use words like 睇 (canto. tai) instead of 看 (mand. kan) but those are words that have meaning in both languages (I think).
What about words that were made up for specific use by the cantonese that  have no meaning in northern dialects.

Like the words:
嗰 (cant. gaw/gor) instead of 的 (mand. de)
喺 (cant. hai) instead of 在 (mand. zai)
佢 (cant. kui) instead of 她 (mand. ta)   <-- not sure about this one since it doesn't have the mouth character on the left I can't tell if it was a newly created character or not

but you get what I'm saying right? What language uses these words that aren't found in northern speech? Or am I not making any sense at all?

Bad examples. Your examples above are all derived from ancient Chinese. And your "ingenious idea" is one of the basics of linguistics. Cantonese has a lot of southern Chinese minority language vocabulary, but the examples you gave are not them.

The possessive particle 嗰 go 嘅 ge is related to ancient Chinese 个 (as "ke", "ge", "e"), which exists in nearly all southern Chinese dialects (including Wu and Minnan) and was used in ancient Chinese as well.

The archaic Chinese pronunciation for he/she/it was something like "keui" (character: 人渠) . Later this word became geui, hard gi or soft ji (in some Wu dialects and classically written as 其), and eventually yi (伊 in Shanghainese and Minnan). Hence 渠 = 佢 = 其 = 伊. The Mandarin ta 他 is a completely different word, meaning "other".

[thedamnrainman]

that is cool, how come they don't use those same characters? with the exception of 个 since it has a new or different meaning now.

FYI I'm not a linguist, but I thought it was "ingenius" for person with a low IQ like myself

[nishishei]

I'm not a linguist either.

They use different characters, because when the sounds change dramatically (more than just systematic phonetic change) from the reading given to a character, a new character is created or an another character with identical pronunciation to the new sound is given a new meaning. That's how Chinese characters work in Chinese, otherwise you will still be writing 何处 for 哪里 (na3li "where"). With the exception of Japanese kunyomi, Chinese characters DO NOT transcend sound.

[AhMan]

I want to ask Nishishei which dialect was used as official Chinese during Early Han/late Qin. I am sure at least Chu language was different from Qi's, Qin's, SanJin's and Chu land was the largest. Is there any trace of ancient dialects in classical texts?

[nishishei]

I want to ask Nishishei which dialect was used as official Chinese during Early Han/late Qin. I am sure at least Chu language was different from Qi's, Qin's, SanJin's and Chu land was the largest. Is there any trace of ancient dialects in classical texts?

Each dynasty and kingdom had their own official language.
周秦 = “雅言”
西汉 = “通语”
东汉魏晋 = “洛语”
南朝 = “吴音” (This is also the Japanese's "Go-on")
隋唐 = “汉音”, “秦音” (This is also the Japanese's "Kan-on")
宋元 = “正音”, “雅音” (Proto-Mandarin)
明清 = “官话” (Mandarin)

The Chu language was recorded to be very different from northern languages and was something of a creole of Tibeto-Burman, Hmong-Mien and Sinitic languages. But unfortunately, not much direct records remain. As early as the 666BC, there was record of a separate "Chu language" 楚言 and that it was uncomprehensible with the Huaxia languages of the north. But the upper classes of Chu could also speak the northern official language.

Chu's main contact outside of the northern Sinitic languages was with Wu. By Spring and Autumn period, Chu shared more than 50% vocabulary with the language of Wu (Wu's upper classes spoke a Sinitic language of the Zhou ethnicity but eventually became indigenized as evident in their reign names). It is widely speculated that two language of Chu and Wu merged into one (with dialect differences) by the end of the Warring States period after the Chu conquest of Wu and Yue. This unified language, Chinese linguists term 远古吴语 (Archaic Wu), would absorb further northern elements during the Han dynasty (becoming 中古吴语, Middle Wu, commonly referred to as 江东话 Jiangdong-hua) and become the lingua franca of Sun Quan's Wu Kingdom (of the Three Kingdoms) and Eastern Jin after the collapse of the Han and Western Jin. Later northern migrations (the Gan/Hakka corridor) during the Tang and Song would divide the language into three main modern dialects groups: Wu (吴方言), Xiang (湘方言), Hui (徽方言). These three dialect groups are the modern descendents of the language of Chu, through comparison of these dialects, some ancient Chu core words can still be reconstructed.

One of the widely familiar Chu word was 晓 or 晓得 (Mandarin: xiaode) for "to know". The three dialect groups Wu, Xiang, Hui all use this word, and do not use 知（知道）、识（认识） at all。

[AhMan]

thank you for very instructive pieace of information. But apart from the name of the official languages is there any any further information about their origin, characteristics?
It seems the official languages of each dynasty was based on the language of the locality where the capital was (e.g luo yan, wu yin)
BTW, when we say dialects winthin Mandarin are they very different from each other. I just know Sichuan dialect as one of Mandarin dialects and it is different in tones and some very few pronunciations from official Mandarin.

Edited by AhMan, 06 July 2005 - 09:07 PM.

[qrasy]

They use words like 睇 (canto. tai) instead of 看 (mand. kan) but those are words that have meaning in both languages (I think).

When I heard the Vietnamese term for 'to look at', I thought 睇 was related with Vietnamese 'thấy'.

Bad examples.  Your examples above are all derived from ancient Chinese.  And your "ingenious idea" is one of the basics of linguistics.  Cantonese has a lot of southern Chinese minority language vocabulary, but the examples you gave are not them.

The possessive particle 嗰 go 嘅 ge is related to ancient Chinese 个 (as "ke", "ge", "e"), which exists in nearly all southern Chinese dialects (including Wu and Minnan) and was used in ancient Chinese as well.

The archaic Chinese pronunciation for he/she/it was something like "keui" (character: 人渠) .  Later this word became geui, hard gi or soft ji (in some Wu dialects and classically written as 其), and eventually yi (伊 in Shanghainese and Minnan).  Hence 渠 = 佢 = 其 = 伊.  The Mandarin ta 他 is a completely different word, meaning "other".

I thought Min Nan 'e' is somehow related to the Korean term '의'
An example of usage: 조국의 하늘
translation to Mandarin: 祖國的 天空
So is '的' probably derived from the ancient 个 (Like 吃 from 食)?
North Chinese 被 (passive indicator) possibly derived from 'pei' passive particle (with other meaning 'to give' in Cantonese). What's it in Chinese character?
睇 is one of the 'southern minority terms' isn't it?
Also, I find strange term for 'this', 'cockroach'. I don't remember it. Are they from southern terms?

Each dynasty and kingdom had their own official language.
周秦 = “雅言”
西汉 = “通语”
东汉魏晋 = “洛语”
南朝 = “吴音” (This is also the Japanese's "Go-on")
隋唐 = “汉音”, “秦音”  (This is also the Japanese's "Kan-on")
宋元 = “正音”, “雅音” (Proto-Mandarin)
明清 = “官话” (Mandarin)

The Chu language was recorded to be very different from northern languages and was something of a creole of Tibeto-Burman, Hmong-Mien and Sinitic languages.  But unfortunately, not much direct records remain.  As early as the 666BC, there was record of a separate "Chu language" 楚言 and that it was uncomprehensible with the Huaxia languages of the north.  But the upper classes of Chu could also speak the northern official language. 

Chu's main contact outside of the northern Sinitic languages was with Wu. By Spring and Autumn period, Chu shared more than 50% vocabulary with the language of Wu (Wu's upper classes spoke a Sinitic language of the Zhou ethnicity but eventually became indigenized as evident in their reign names).  It is widely speculated that two language of Chu and Wu merged into one (with dialect differences) by the end of the Warring States period after the Chu conquest of Wu and Yue.  This unified language, Chinese linguists term 远古吴语 (Archaic Wu), would absorb further northern elements during the Han dynasty (becoming 中古吴语, Middle Wu, commonly referred to as 江东话 Jiangdong-hua) and become the lingua franca of Sun Quan's Wu Kingdom (of the Three Kingdoms) and Eastern Jin after the collapse of the Han and Western Jin.  Later northern migrations (the Gan/Hakka corridor) during the Tang and Song would divide the language into three main modern dialects groups: Wu (吴方言), Xiang (湘方言), Hui (徽方言).  These three dialect groups are the modern descendents of the language of Chu, through comparison of these dialects, some ancient Chu core words can still be reconstructed.

One of the widely familiar Chu word was 晓 or 晓得 (Mandarin: xiaode) for "to know".  The three dialect groups Wu, Xiang, Hui all use this word, and do not use 知（知道）、识（认识） at all。

Was '楚言' considered a new part of Sinitic language or a language in a separate family?
So the terms derived from southern languages were once used for standard language of Chinese (Eastern Jin)? Can we find many of these term in Northen Chinese language (excluding the new loans from Wu to Mandarin)?

Also: I think probably this '晓' <=> hiểu (Vietnamese).

[tongyan]

The possessive particle 嗰 go 嘅 ge is related to ancient Chinese 个 (as "ke", "ge", "e"), which exists in nearly all southern Chinese dialects (including Wu and Minnan) and was used in ancient Chinese as well.

I think he used go3 嗰 to refer to "that" and not the possessive particle. i think most cantonese will use 個 to write the possessive particle.

[tongyan]

One of the widely familiar Chu word was 晓 or 晓得 (Mandarin: xiaode) for "to know".  The three dialect groups Wu, Xiang, Hui all use this word, and do not use 知（知道）、识（认识） at all。

Cantonese also uses this word but it is generally used only by the older generation and village dialects probably due to the recent influence of mandarin and "standard chinese" education.

[tongyan]

North Chinese 被 (passive indicator) possibly derived from 'pei' passive particle (with other meaning 'to give' in Cantonese). What's it in Chinese character?
睇 is one of the 'southern minority terms' isn't it?
Also, I find strange term for 'this', 'cockroach'. I don't remember it. Are they from southern terms?

俾 in cantonese does not mean "to give" it actually means 'let' or 'allow' which is probably the word you are looking for.
"to give" is 畀
they are both pronounced the same way which is why there might be some confusion.

ex:
佢會俾我去啩
He/she will let me go (probably)
佢會畀錢我去啩
He/she will give me money to go (probably)

two different meanings.

The cantonese term for 'this' is 呢 ni1
while cockroach is... 曱甴 gaat6 zaat2(zaat6)

[nishishei]

So the terms derived from southern languages were once used for standard language of Chinese (Eastern Jin)? Can we find many of these term in Northen Chinese language (excluding the new loans from Wu to Mandarin)?

Yeah, like 农、人 (nang/nong) are probably southern words loaned into northern speech.

[tongyan]

Yeah, like 农、人 (nang/nong) are probably southern words loaned into northern speech.

you mean 人 (ren) is loaned from the south? really? or is there something i'm missing here? the pictographic nature of the character 人 seems to make it a word that's been with many different flavors of chinese since an early time.