74 replies to this topic

[tongyan]

From another thread:
As far as I know, Standard Cantonese always put the modifier BEFORE the noun (like in Mandarin). I've never encountered any exceptions.

Some websites say "Guest" is 人客 in Cantonese, but i've only heard people say 客人 (Hak yan).

i've heard of 人客 before but not as often as 客人. there are other exceptions, most notably, terms like 雞乸 / 雞公 (hen / rooster) and then stuff like 魚生 or even 雞仔 / 狗仔 putting the 仔 after the noun instead of using 小 before the noun.

[nishishei]

Some websites say "Guest" is 人客 in Cantonese, but i've only heard people say 客人 (Hak yan).

i've heard of 人客 before but not as often as 客人.  there are other exceptions, most notably, terms like 雞乸 / 雞公 (hen / rooster) and then stuff like 魚生 or even 雞仔 / 狗仔 putting the 仔 after the noun instead of using 小 before the noun.

We use 人客 (ninkhaq) in Wu dialects all the time. In fact, older generations use 人客 exclusively. The term 做人客 in Wu sounds really weird if we said 做客人.

[kaixin]

[**In Cantonese, the words 'bin-do' and 'bin-go' for where and who are
borrowings from Zhuang, which is a Tai language. The fact that Cantonese
sometimes puts the noun after the modifier also suggests a Tai substrata]

Emperor,

You are right. Cantonese puts the noun before the modifier. I don't know how they came up with that info.

Not all Cantonese dialects us "bin-do" or "bin-gou" for where and who are. In Toisan dialect, they use "nai" for where, and "a-sui" for who are.

[tongyan]

We use 人客 (ninkhaq) in Wu dialects all the time.  In fact, older generations use 人客 exclusively. The term 做人客 in Wu sounds really weird if we said 做客人.

good example. traditionally cantonese also uses 做人客, as in "做人客生意既良機"
but nowadays, 做客人 works too

[tongyan]

[**In Cantonese, the words 'bin-do' and 'bin-go' for where and who are
borrowings from Zhuang, which is a Tai language. The fact that Cantonese
sometimes puts the noun after the modifier also suggests a Tai substrata]

Emperor,

You are right.  Cantonese puts the noun before the modifier.  I don't know how they came up with that info.

Not all Cantonese dialects us "bin-do" or "bin-gou" for where and who are.  In Toisan dialect, they use "nai" for where, and "a-sui" for who are.

kaixin:
in your post above you say you agree with emperor but then you say cantonese puts the noun before the modifier? I think emperor was asserting that the noun is placed after the modifier in every instance without exception.

If you are agreeing with emperor's assertion, I must disagree. I have already given examples in one of my previous posts of instances where the modifier is placed after the noun.

most notably, terms like 雞乸 / 雞公 (hen / rooster) and then stuff like 魚生 or even 雞仔 / 狗仔 putting the 仔 after the noun instead of using 小 before the noun.

i suspect toisanese also has this type of word-order in certain cases.

update: i have confirmed with two native speakers of toisanese - 乸 is placed after many animals to make it female.
the modifier 仔 (pronounced doi1 in toisan) is also placed after objects to for a diminutive effect (mandarin equivalent is 小 placed in front of the noun)

Edited by tongyan, 11 July 2005 - 11:06 PM.

[qrasy]

俾 in cantonese does not mean "to give" it actually means 'let' or 'allow' which is probably the word you are looking for.
"to give" is 畀
they are both pronounced the same way which is why there might be some confusion.

ex:
佢會俾我去啩
He/she will let me go (probably)
佢會畀錢我去啩
He/she will give me money to go (probably)

two different meanings.

The cantonese term for 'this' is 呢 ni1
while cockroach is... 曱甴 gaat6 zaat2(zaat6)

In some languages of Southern East Asia, 'give' can also used for 'permit'
Are the tones of 俾 and 畀 the same or different?
呢 also seems to be southern minority word, Vietnamese này.
Cockroach: (con) gián in Vietnamese. It seems closer to 蟑螂 than 曱甴??

Yeah, like 农、人 (nang/nong) are probably southern words loaned into northern speech.

Probably he meant '侬' (human, lang2 in Min Nan, often replaced by 人 in writing)

**In Cantonese, the words 'bin-do' and 'bin-go' for where and who are
borrowings from Zhuang, which is a Tai language. The fact that Cantonese
sometimes puts the noun after the modifier also suggests a Tai substrata

I guess 'bin' is 'what', 'do' place, and 'go' person.
But the combinations go in the same order as Chinese? (Chinese:What-person, what-place, reverse to Indonesian)

most notably, terms like 雞乸 / 雞公 (hen / rooster) and then stuff like 魚生 or even 雞仔 / 狗仔 putting the 仔 after the noun instead of using 小 before the noun.

How to read this fearsome character: "乸"?
I thought that 仔 means 'child'(noun), not 'young/small'(adjevtive) so eventually become 'chicken's child'; 'dog's child', not 'small chicken';'small dog'
But 魚生 is so funny. 魚生片 is logical for Chinese (魚+生片) but not "魚生".

Edited by qrasy, 15 July 2005 - 01:21 AM.

[thedamnrainman]

I don't know the pronunciation of it, but if 仔 is pronounced as "dzai" then 仔 is not the same as 子. When you are talking about humans it means kid or child.
女仔 = girl while 女人 = woman
車仔 = little car (toy car or a shopping cart... basically a cart)
貓仔 = small cat (baby, infant, or even an old but small cat)

[yehzhaofeng]

If you just use 仔, it means son. Cantonese do not use 子 as much as Mandarin speakers.

Usually, words with 子, like 貓仔, you can omit the 仔.

I think i have a weird form of Cantonese I'm speaking here.

Anyone heard people say Ga Zaat? I think its the lazy boy Cantonese.lol

[tongyan]

In some languages of Southern East Asia, 'give' can also used for 'permit'
Are the tones of 俾 and 畀 the same or different?
呢 also seems to be southern minority word, Vietnamese này.
Cockroach: (con) gián in Vietnamese. It seems closer to 蟑螂 than 曱甴??

俾 and 畀 are the same tone/same pronunciation/identical.
呢 might be a southern minority word or it might be a modern pronunciation of a classical word used for 'this' i have suspected that the character might be 邇 which means "here, near, recently" but is pronounced 'er3' in mandarin and 'ji5' in cantonese. the reason i think this character is a strong candidate for being 'ni1' in southern dialects is because other characters with the phonetic element 爾 are all pronounced nei4 (彌瀰濔禰獼) the modern cantonese word for 'this' ni1 might have undergone a sound change... also, the vietnamese này you have offered looks like it might sound close to the original pronunciation (nei4)
as for cockroach... i think several southern chinese dialects use a similar term? i remember a taiwanese friend telling me a term for cockroach which i immediately recognized as being close to canto - can anybody confirm?

Probably he meant '侬' (human, lang2 in Min Nan, often replaced by 人 in writing)

yah, what i thought too

I guess 'bin' is 'what', 'do' place, and 'go' person.
But the combinations go in the same order as Chinese? (Chinese:What-person, what-place, reverse to Indonesian)

yeh, basically. however, 'go' is not necessarily person... it's probably better classified as 'thing' because if i asked some question like this:

ling1 go3 doi2 bei2 ngo5 a1
拎個袋畀我o丫
can you hand me that bag?

bin1 go3 hai6 nei5 ga3?
邊個係你o架﹖
which bag is yours?

How to read this fearsome character: "乸"?
I thought that 仔 means 'child'(noun), not 'young/small'(adjevtive) so eventually become 'chicken's child'; 'dog's child', not 'small chicken';'small dog'
But 魚生 is so funny. 魚生片 is logical for Chinese (魚+生片) but not "魚生".

乸 is read 'na2' or 'la2' (lazy sound)
notice the 母 element within that character which gives a clue to its meaning.

仔 does mean child as a noun but it is also acts as a diminuitive. you could argue for chicken's child, dog's child, but what if the terms being described are NOT living things?
like

衫仔 shirt's child? little shirt sounds more appropriate
車仔 small car
床仔 small bed

and for 魚生 - standard chinese uses 生魚片

sidenote: i remember my grandpa always ate raw fish during chinese new years because it sounded like 餘生
same thing goes to other canto new years foods... they usually sound like something good or auspicious which is why they are eaten.

[tongyan]

I don't know the pronunciation of it, but if 仔 is pronounced as "dzai" then 仔 is not the same as 子. When you are talking about humans it means kid or child. 
女仔 = girl  while 女人 =  woman
車仔 = little car (toy car or a shopping cart... basically a cart)
貓仔 = small cat (baby, infant, or even an old but small cat)

agreed. good explanation

[tongyan]

If you just use 仔, it means son. Cantonese do not use 子 as much as Mandarin speakers.

yep, 子 is used way too much in mandarin to differentiate between words that have similar sounds. some words in canto must have the 子 tho... like 栗子 and 獅子

Usually, words with 子, like 貓仔, you can omit the 仔.

true again but the example you gave is wrong. 貓仔 is not equivalent to 貓 so if you meant to say 貓仔 you cannot omit the 仔

examples of where you can (must if you want to sound natural) omit the 子:

椅子
褲子
屋子

you must omit the 子 from these words in cantonese speech.

I think i have a weird form of Cantonese I'm speaking here.

Anyone heard people say Ga Zaat? I think its the lazy boy Cantonese.lol

i dunno what form of cantonese ur speaking but ga zaat to pronounce 曱甴 is either a real quick way of saying it or bordering on westernized pronunciations. one of the unique features of the pronunciation of 曱甴 is that it, like many other native words in canto, are what i call 'rhyming couplets' (not sure of the standard term) both characters in the word group rhyme... so most natives would not use 'ga zaat' since it doesn't rhyme.

[tongyan]

My parents and I always say 乸雞 (mo kai) and 公雞 (kung kai). We speak standard Cantonese from  the Shenzhen area...

Could it be that both terms are correct?

母雞 (mou gai) 公雞 (gung gai) are standard chinese terms. sure, you can say them in cantonese, in fact, many ppl nowadays use those terms but the older generation will use 雞乸 / 雞公

lemme ask you this... how would you say this question in cantonese?
"Is your pet male or female?"

you can ask your parents if they use 乸 and 公 or if they know about 乸 and 公 to answer that question above.

[qrasy]

俾 and 畀  are the same tone/same pronunciation/identical.

Might be differentiation of the same word to represent different context.
Are they Yin-Shang?

呢 might be a southern minority word or it might be a modern pronunciation of a classical word used for 'this'  i have suspected that the character might be 邇 which means "here, near, recently" but is pronounced 'er3' in mandarin and 'ji5' in cantonese.  the reason i think this character is a strong candidate for being 'ni1' in southern dialects is because other characters with the phonetic element 爾 are all pronounced nei4 (彌瀰濔禰獼)  the modern cantonese word for 'this' ni1 might have undergone a sound change... also, the vietnamese này you have offered looks like it might sound close to the original pronunciation (nei4)

One remarkable thing about Southern minority nouns is that sometimes they are close to Indonesian. (Indonesian natives seems to be half-Yue (with half Black).)
'this' in Indonesian is 'ini'
Once I accounted a standardized (can be found in Middle Chinese and Sino-Xenic systems) Southern Minority word, 脚 (foot), jiao3 Mand., kyok Cant., seems to be derived from Malay 'kaki'. The 足 is a better word. But I noticed how close this term is to Sundanese, another Austronesian language, which says 'suku' for 足.

as for cockroach... i think several southern chinese dialects use a similar term?  i remember a taiwanese friend telling me a term for cockroach which i immediately recognized as being close to canto - can anybody confirm?

In Indonesia Chinese users have a lot of Indonesian loans, so I can't be sure whether this is Indonesian loan or not. There are some trends of lending of Malay to mainland by migration of overseas Chinese.
It says 'ga zuak' /ka tswak/

yeh, basically.  however, 'go' is not necessarily person... it's probably better classified as 'thing' because if i asked some question like this:

ling1 go3 doi2 bei2 ngo5 a1
拎個袋畀我o丫
can you hand me that bag?

bin1 go3 hai6 nei5 ga3?
邊個係你o架﹖
which bag is yours?

So basically bin '邊' uses as the same function as '哪' (Northern speech)
'Who' can be replaced by 'which person' 哪個(人).

Notice: 哪 => Indonesian 'mana' 'which/where (depending on context)'
'yang mana'=which one
'di mana'='at'+'where'=where
Northern person use Indonesian word whiel Southern doesn't??? A strange thing to notice. Maybe it's coincidence from the language of 胡.
Anyone know a Northern word related with this?? I only know nani 'what' Japanese, but the meaning is quite different.

乸 is read 'na2' or 'la2' (lazy sound)
notice the 母 element within that character which gives a clue to its meaning.

Indonesian 'betina'??
Female in Vietnamese: nái, mái, cái, gái (slightly different meanings, some for human and some for animal, I forget the difference)
the first one is the best in form.

仔 does mean child as a noun but it is also acts as a diminuitive.  you could argue for chicken's child, dog's child, but what if the terms being described are NOT living things? 
like

衫仔 shirt's child? little shirt sounds more appropriate
車仔 small car
床仔 small bed

There are some trends of using 'child' in a very wierd way.
Xiang language (子 means nothing): 禾線子(=稻穗子)、淩杠子(=冰錐兒)、紙條子(=紙條)、麻雀子、螞蟻子、桌子、椅子

and for 魚生  - standard chinese uses 生魚片

There are some terms which if reversed in some order still have the same meaning.
Aren't these the same? :
你要去哪里走?
你要走去哪里?