169 replies to this topic

[TMPikachu]

This is around when Europe's got the heavy crossbows, plate armor, big charger knights and whatnot.

And this is... Ming China then, yeah? What would a clash of such armies had been like?

Would the Chinese find their bolts bouncing off plate and defeated? Or would Europeans be exausted by Chinese mobility and defeated?

[jiangji]

I would say that leadership would be important here in determining the victory condition. I think Ming would have great advantages during Yongle leadership. Again, cannon was already in use by the Ming army at that time. This could give an great advantages over the Europe army.

Edited by jiangji, 07 July 2005 - 02:49 PM.

[ih8eurocentrix]

agincourt was a victory of longbowmen over french plate armoured knights so i dont see how the europeans could win

[Effect]

Actually it is rather incorrect to say that the longbows won agincourt. The ground chosen as the site for battle, the conditions etc all played their part. The truth is even at close range a longbow wont pierce plate armour.

[Kenneth]

Actually it is rather incorrect to say that the longbows won agincourt. The ground chosen as the site for battle, the conditions etc all played their part. The truth is even at close range a longbow wont pierce plate armour.

That seems more correct, Agincourt is simplified into 'Longbow vs. Plate' far too often. The proportion of French wearing plate, the movement of the formations, the boggy ground etc. all seems to be left out of it.
There have been some pretty indepth discussions on this subject elsewhere....and along with experiments of Longbows versus plate found that the armour is very effective at turning arrows at even an optimum angle....it takes a chisel point specifically and a direct hit at short range to stand a chance....not an volley in an arc.

These various 'versus' threads just keep popping up. Seeking answers to hypotheticals that can't be satisfactorily answered.
WHich is better; Coke or Pepsi? Does one really have to be better than the other?

How about comparing weapons and tactics of each without the unnessecary 'versus' since nobody ever outlines the numbers, terrain, location or scenario by which these armies meet.

[Liang Jieming]

coke is better. pepsi is too sweet! But then again, Dr. Pepper's pretty good too.

Ok, seriously, Kenneth has a valid point. All these verses type treads seek answers that can't ever be satisfactory for either point of view.

[Daniel]

agincourt was a victory of longbowmen over french plate armoured knights so i dont see how the europeans could win

Well, the longbowmen were Europeans too, right?

IIRC, the most formidable European infantry of the 15th century were the close-packed Swiss pikemen. Wouldn't such close-packed formations be very vulnerable to massed Ming firearms? Plate armor also would be no protection against the firearms.

Since Europe wasn't unified in the 15th century, I have a hard time seeing any one European state whose army could have beaten a Ming army.

[General_Zhaoyun]

The Ming firearms during this time was definitely more advanced than Europe. The multi-ple cannons can blow up the European knights of this time.

[wlee15]

Well the firearms of the time didn't have much range and required a gunner to manualy ignite the gunpowder which necesitated the use of a bipod. That limited the rate of fire would very limited even with rotation. Plus pikeman can sprint quickly over quite a long distance even with their heavy equipment. In any case the early 15th century no army would make an heavy use of firearms.

[Mei Houwang]

The Swiss pikemen even after introduction to gunpowder were very reluctant to give up their fighting styles for gunpowder. Maybe it has something to do with their effectiveness.

[Liang Jieming]

early guns were no match for the rate of fire, accuracy and in many cases, range of bows and crossbows. Only the increasing cheapness of manufacture, ease of training and increasing range, power and accuracy of gunpowder weapons forced traditional range weapons out of service.

[TMPikachu]

That seems more correct, Agincourt is simplified into 'Longbow vs. Plate' far too often. The proportion of French wearing plate, the movement of the formations, the boggy ground etc. all seems to be left out of it.
There have been some pretty indepth discussions on this subject elsewhere....and along with experiments of Longbows versus plate found that the armour is very effective at turning arrows at even an optimum angle....it takes a chisel point specifically and a direct hit at short range to stand a chance....not an volley in an arc.

These various 'versus' threads just keep popping up. Seeking answers to hypotheticals that can't be satisfactorily answered.
WHich is better; Coke or Pepsi? Does one really have to be better than the other?

How about comparing weapons and tactics of each without the unnessecary 'versus' since nobody ever outlines the numbers, terrain, location or scenario by which these armies meet.

But with a versus theme, people post as much as they know on their respective sides to give an idea of who had what.

[Effect]

Perhaps kennth does not have a bad idea. Rather than turning into a versus thread we simply turn it into a project of discovering as much about both sides as we can. And each can take from that info what they will. If we organise it right we can get some decent info and discussion.

And while it may be counter productive to compare two states, I imagine it would be perfectly possible to compare things such as training recieved by chinese spearmen vs european spearman

[TMPikachu]

Perhaps kennth does not have a bad idea. Rather than turning into a versus thread we simply turn it into a project of discovering as much about both sides as we can. And each can take from that info what they will. If we organise it right we can get some decent info and discussion.

And while it may be counter productive to compare two states, I imagine it would be perfectly possible to compare things such as training recieved by chinese spearmen vs european spearman

that's what happens in the versus threads tho', what happened in the HvR one.