169 replies to this topic

[jamjoh]

No one knows what ancient boxing looked like, so unless you have proof that it influenced modern boxing, you cannot simply assume it affected it. Modern boxing originated with British bare knuckle pugilism about 3-4 hundred years ago and you need to provide the evidence that the street thugs who found this fighting had access to documents on fighting from Greco-Roman times; that somehow the art of boxing and wrestling survived the onslaught of the dark age and passed on to modern Britain. All of this I find extremely dubious; this is a history forum, not a martial arts forum, where blind assumptions of origination without scholarly scrutiny is accepted without question.



Since this is a history forum, we are only interested in historical evidence, not martial arts legends which have no concrete basis whatsoever. You might want to get use to that. First off, I was talking about Chinese wrestling, and no, Chi does not date before the Tang dynasty as I already pointed out. The earliest evidence of any Chi associated with martial arts dates no earlier than the Ming. Shaolin monks does not practice martial arts until the late Yuan, no evidence before the Yuan suggests otherwise. Boddhidharma knowing martial arts is nothing more than a legend that dates to the early 19th century based on the baseless association of the Yijing Jin with him. This has already been done before in the past, and you've even posted in that thread; please read the whole thread carefully before replying, don't make it repetitive:
http://www.chinahist...origin-of-sumo/

You are in fact now misreading what I wrote. I did not say and do not believe that Bodhidharma taught the monks martial arts. In fact I said "it stands to reason that his contact was when the Shaolin monks incorporated Chi into their martial arts". Reread that...focus on the word incorporated. He brought the concept of Chi to China, and that is what I was saying. So for you to come out and talk about legends of him knowing martial arts is immaterial since that is not what I said.

That is the information that I learned from my Kung Fu master, but there is evidence that the concept of chi was in China even before Bodhidharma shows up in the "Record of the Buddhist Monasteries". The "Huangdi Neijing" predates Bodhidharma by at least 500 yrs and it discusses the idea of Chi as it applies to medicine, so obviously there is alot that we have not discussed as possibilities. There is no reason for me to look up more information because this isn't a question of the history of chi but of the differences between martial arts.

And btw, my personal belief about chi and martial arts, is more of a mind over matter concept than spirit. Your mind is powerful, and knowing how to use it is how some people can withstand severe cold and heat. Your mind also keeps you from striking an object with enough force to break your bones. The difference between hitting much harder and breaking bones, is how some martial artists can break huge blocks of ice. Keep in mind that this is my personal explanation of chi and I don't expect anyone to accept it as proven fact.

As for boxing...I don't want to type very much more so I will just say that yes we know what ancient boxing looked like because we have ancient Sumerian carvings and Egyptian reliefs showing it. I simply don't care enough to present anything more about it at this time.

As for the best martial art...I will say again that it depends on a lot of things, but the easiest ones to learn will probably serve you best.

[jamjoh]

The "Spring and Autumn Annals" reference martial arts also, including the idea of hard and soft techniques. So martial arts were around 500 years BC and Chi was around at least 200 years BC. Neither fact proves that Chi was integrated with martial arts at that time frame, but it is obvious that at any point afterward it could have been.

[dr.k.conor]

There remain some problems with this discussion; objectivity and topic understanding. Martial arts ['kung fu' in the contemporary usage] all have the same objective, defense or attack; the methodologies of any MA are similar. The effects of practice and the time required to condition the body/mind differ between the various martial arts and this conditioning can also result in health injuries.
Thus the companion exercises of tao-yin or 'qi-gong' also need to be considered. At their least, an excellent, stable defense eliminates the need to rely on continuous or first attacks. This also is supported by consideration to the basics of healthiness and natural balance and a calm mind. In the last few hundred years, modern warfare negates traditional martial arts; this reduces much of traditional martial exercise to a hobby and to health exercise.
As these points became more obvious, there developed an interest in merging various martial arts, more easily done if structurally compatible and of similar methodology. Shaolin is often wrongly considered to be 'external' but it does have xinyi-ba 心意把 which has the characteristics of xingyi-, xinyi-, and was also studied by teacher Wang Xiang-zhai as a foundation for his yi-quan. Wang and some of his students became proponents of merging exercises [for health or martial usage], xinyi- done more relaxed and slowly then conforms to princepts of tai-chi-; tai-chi- done as walking will then begin circling and take on princepts of so-called ba-gua-. Some possibly older exercises, ie. LiuHeBaFa 六合八法拳 have the fundamentals of the yi-quan but with more active walking and circling. Most people define tai-chi- as a boxing or health exercise, in fact most stylings, also can perform grappling and throwing and leading maneuvers as does aikido.
Thus, all of the differing names of the various martial arts can if reviewed for what and how the exercise can be merged; this is in fact actually a useful point of view leading to a better understanding.
http://waterspirit6x...d.com/id61.html http://waterspirit6x...od.com/id5.html

Edited by dr.k.conor, 08 June 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[jamjoh]

In the last few hundred years, modern warfare negates traditional martial arts; this reduces much of traditional martial exercise to a hobby and to health exercise.

All special forces in the world today, incorporate some intensive martial arts into their training, and some of them like Krav Maga and Defendu where not even developed until the 20th century. So martial arts have their place in modern warfare.

Edited by jamjoh, 09 June 2012 - 06:15 PM.

[attal]

Martial art is specific to the environment.