169 replies to this topic

[lao_hu489]

Systems don't make the person.    It's the person that makes the system.

I do not think it is possible to determine the answer to this question. If it suits the person well and s/he can use it to its maximum potential then it is the best for that person. How effectively the system is used depends a lot on the teacher as well, what they emphasize and don't emphasize.

And these competitions that they have, well, there will always be someone who comes along who is better, faster, agile, etc...

[CARDINAL009]

I do not think it is possible to determine the answer to this question. If it suits the person well and s/he can use it to its maximum potential then it is the best for that person. How effectively the system is used depends a lot on the teacher as well, what they emphasize and don't emphasize.

And these competitions that they have, well, there will always be someone who comes along who is better, faster, agile, etc...

Agree with your point on the teacher.

Everyone is not going to be a good student. It does come down to the intellect and discipline of the student.

[TMPikachu]

Brazilian jujitsu combined with Thai kickboxing is the most common training for MMA, and the most successful.

That really depends on the opponent, fks using high kicks against a western trained proffesional boxer is a sure way to send you to the hospital, but one using low kicks would have a really good chance.

not necissarily. Mirko 'Cro Cop' is a strong fighter known for his ability to land devistating high kicks


sambo, the name of what Russian special forces are taught, is also highly effective.

Bruce Lee went around whooping style masters just to prove that those styles were just limitations to real scientific fighting.

Styles don't really exist distinctly now in the martial arts world. The success of Brazillian jujitsu under the Gracie name lead for like everyone to start learning brazillian jujitsu. When you watch a fight it's the similiarities that are striking, not differences. It's hard to say that there really are 'styles' anymore.

There's schools/dojos/gyms, yeah, but in essence they all practice one style, and the goal of that style is to make the practitioner an efficient and effective fighter.

I can say one thing though, the best 'style' sure isn't in China, no fighters come from there ! :x

blaaah! It's so dissapointing that the country which likes to claim the invention of martial arts has no martial artists.

Edited by TMPikachu, 19 July 2005 - 07:16 PM.

[sifu_darkfist]

Brazilian jujitsu combined with Thai kickboxing is the most common training for MMA, and the most successful.
not necissarily. Mirko 'Cro Cop' is a strong fighter known for his ability to land devistating high kicks


sambo, the name of what Russian special forces are taught, is also highly effective.

Bruce Lee went around whooping style masters just to prove that those styles were just limitations to real scientific fighting.

Styles don't really exist distinctly now in the martial arts world. The success of Brazillian jujitsu under the Gracie name lead for like everyone to start learning brazillian jujitsu. When you watch a fight it's the similiarities that are striking, not differences. It's hard to say that there really are 'styles' anymore.

There's schools/dojos/gyms, yeah, but in essence they all practice one style, and the goal of that style is to make the practitioner an efficient and effective fighter.

I can say one thing though, the best 'style'  sure isn't in China, no fighters come from there ! :x

blaaah! It's so dissapointing that the country which likes to claim the invention of martial arts has no martial artists.

Unfortunately this is a common misconception for many american martial artists caught up in the hoopla of MMA and all that goes with this sport.
yes i said sport... You are not allowed to remove eyes or rip testes or crush the throat with strikes ect.
True Martial arts for hand to hand combat on the battlefield is what the majority of real chinese fighters use (or at least the realistic ones). I personally know first hand from many sources including the military that jujitsu tactics are considered last resort by top KILLERS and killing is the object of martial arts. However it will not offend me at all if the so called american martial arts community continues to beleive in the WWF spin off "the ultimate fighting" or MMA because real combat never reaches the t v screen up close and personal. Even with todays media saturation the governmentr of all nations forces the censorship of a man riping the eyes of another out ot crushing the throat of an enemy. The point is i as a praying mantis and Baji Quan sifu know exactly what i teach and i know my students abilities so i adapt the style to fit the killer and that is it. Make no mistake however praying mantis in its advanced and practical application is only for killing and not for television pay per view.
as for the claims of Russian Special forces when was the last time an on leave army ranger fought in the MMA fiasco? never.. and they never will because they put the MArtial in MArtial arts the military art of Killing plain and simple.

[lao_hu489]

I really like Bruce Lee's Jeet Kung Do as it is very adaptable.

Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend.

and

Let no style be your style, Let no limitations be your Limitations.

are 2 quotes that I find most influential. Still nothing can compete with the father of all Martial Arts, Shaolin Kung Fu. But whatever you are most adept in should be fine

If you did not attribute that to Bruce Lee, I would have said it was Lao Zi.

[urofpersia]

Styles don't really exist distinctly now in the martial arts world. The success of Brazillian jujitsu under the Gracie name lead for like everyone to start learning brazillian jujitsu. When you watch a fight it's the similiarities that are striking, not differences. It's hard to say that there really are 'styles' anymore.

There's schools/dojos/gyms, yeah, but in essence they all practice one style, and the goal of that style is to make the practitioner an efficient and effective fighter.

Your assumption here is that the so-called martial arts world is really one world...it isnt. Some western competition martial artists find it hard to understand that the competitive martial arts world is just one segment of martial arts. They are many traditional masters who specifically forbid their students to take part in competition or fighting other than self-defense. If the student is taught well, he would in fact not only obey but embrace this philosophy but when in time he himself becomes a teacher teach the same philosophy to his students. In fact getting involved in a fght can be seen as a failure.

There are many schools of thoughts on the best method in fighting. Bruce Lee's as eptitomed in Jeet Kune Do is just one of them. Is it the best philosophy? Maybe, and from a certain angle probably true. Jeet Kune Do, contrary to some Chinese martial arts emphasizes external training, direct force and speed at the expense of internal training and 'Listening' or 'Awareness'. Consider that even within Chinese martial arts there are differing philosophies and it depends on what you mean to achieve by practising the art.

Their are schools of Chinese martial arts where say if you as the opponent get to within range to use either your hands or legs, you are probably already dead or incapacitated.

[ShanXiYan]

I've read this on many forums where people're talking about wu shu and the different kinds of martial arts out there today: that it's not really true martial arts, but rather a flowery, jumpy acrobatics show adapated from the old, true killing tactics, and that it produces nice effects, but no real fighters.

Now I don't know if this is true or not, or if all the students the various wushu schools out there in China today produce are as useless as this makes them sound, but I was wondering if people here would say anything different about that statement.

Is the art of real fighting really dead in China? Naturally true killing moves might not be used much anymore, but has everything really been diluted into a mere pretty show?

I must say that the recent cinema's fighting scene qualities do appear to be declining rapidly. It's all CG or strings now. I personally really enjoyed wholesome, down-in-the-dirt kind of action like in the old CCTV Water Margin series, though I don't know if that was the watered-down wu shu, or more realistic, traditional fighting.

I'm also a bit curious: are all actors and actressess schooled in martial arts/wu shu in China really just acting when they fight onscreen? And by this, I mean are the moves they makes really just dreamed up for visual looks and not really practically applicable? Are there any movies (other than Bruce Lee's) you can think of where the fight scenes are composed of people who really know what they're doing?

[Wujiang]

I've read this on many forums where people're talking about wu shu and the different kinds of martial arts out there today: that it's not really true martial arts, but rather a flowery, jumpy acrobatics show adapated from the old, true killing tactics, and that it produces nice effects, but no real fighters. 

If you are talking about the martial arts coming out of mainland China since the foundation of the republic, yeah, thats pretty much the case. But traditional arts still exists. If that is what you are talking about, it is still different because they were meant for fighting. However only a very small portion of Chinese martial arts in China was meant to kill. The main reason being that "Chinese martial arts" as we know it today are all civilian styles. Civilian fighting styles evolved in cities. Military systems evolved for war. If you used the military system for civilian fighting and killed someone, then you will simply get arrested and executed for murder. If you killed someone of higher places in imperial china, it would mean your family's execution also. So it is basically a lose-lose situation. If you use civilian styles in war, you would be spending too much time trying to subdue the opponent while his conrads will move in and dice you from behind. Winning does not mean killing. And Chinese arts generally have evolved around confucian values which is a matter of subdueing the opponent rather than beating or killing them. Of course, this is style dependent. But thats that overall mainstream.

Now I don't know if this is true or not, or if all the students the various wushu schools out there in China today produce are as useless as this makes them sound, but I was wondering if people here would say anything different about that statement. 

Is the art of real fighting really dead in China?  Naturally true killing moves might not be used much anymore, but has everything really been diluted into a mere pretty show?

In mainland China ? Pretty much.

I must say that the recent cinema's fighting scene qualities do appear to be declining rapidly.  It's all CG or strings now.  I personally really enjoyed wholesome, down-in-the-dirt kind of action like in the old CCTV Water Margin series, though I don't know if that was the watered-down wu shu, or more realistic, traditional fighting.

I'm also a bit curious: are all actors and actressess schooled in martial arts/wu shu in China really just acting when they fight onscreen?  And by this, I mean are the moves they makes really just dreamed up for visual looks and not really practically applicable?  Are there any movies (other than Bruce Lee's) you can think of where the fight scenes are composed of people who really know what they're doing?

I recommend 70s era shaws brothers movie. Everything that came after 1990 have been going down the drain, and don't get me started on movies since 2000.

Edited by Wujiang, 20 July 2005 - 08:57 AM.

[Yang Zongbao]

Clearing a few things up
1) Shaolin is NOT the father of all martial arts...martial arts existed far before Shaolin, and this notion is not correct at all.

2) Yes, Wushu is very flowery, with little substance. The stances, etc, have been elongated. The arms are held straight in punching, and knees are locked in stances. It looks pretty, but is also pretty useless- and even pretty dangerous when you fight someone who knows how to exploit these faults.
And also, it's dangerous when you confuse performance wushu with a fighting art, and pick a fight you can't win. It really does something to your attitude if you don't know...I know this because I practice wushu, but thankfully, I found a good Tai Ji teacher, and didn't have to learn the hard way.

[ShanXiYan]

I recommend 70s era shaws brothers movie. Everything that came after 1990 have been going down the drain, and don't get me started on movies since 2000.

Ok, I'll try to find some. Though have you seen one of HK's latest, House of Fury? I thought the scenes there were some of the best I've ever seen, not the showy, useless, flying stuff, but very business-like, efficient moves. Still, I might have been completely hoodwinked.

How about Jet Li? Is his training in wu shu completely useless as well? I was told he was a champion of it back in the day, but I don't know what that means in terms of real fighting outside the Mainland.

Any series or other movies people can recommend with 'real' fighting? I ask because I don't have any good martial arts clubs around here that feature anything Chinese (I guess these are rare anywhere?), and other than the big screen, which is sadly polluted with fake fighting, I don't have other outlets to watch people who know some real wuyi.

And yeah, I guess I didn't really mean killing moves as in really "killing", but efficiently and effectively taking down the opponent for the fight.

What traditional styles that're relatively undiluted still exist in practical, practiceable forms today? Tai Ji I know of, though I've heard people saying it's just as useless as modern wu shu. I personally don't agree, even though I've never seen anyone fight with this style, but maybe someone can enlighten me.

[TMPikachu]

It is a common defense for people to say "oh well, it's too deadly, you can't use it in a sport..."

The style from Japan which becaome Brazillian Jiujitsu proved that wrong. Learning 'killing' moves without ever practicing them is not as practical as being able to practice less fatal moves constantly.
Someone who can train constantly in the application of not-so-fatal moves will gain great experience in what he can actually do. Someone who learns 'killing moves' but can't actually practice them has little experience with it.

Brazil is also known as a rather unruly country in certain parts, where street fights break out between rival schools. The martial arts world of Brazil is something like that of a Shaw brothers film! (well, maybe not as grandiose). There are rival schools with students that seek each other out to fight and see who's stronger.

"as for the claims of Russian Special forces when was the last time an on leave army ranger fought in the MMA fiasco? never.. and they never will because they put the MArtial in MArtial arts the military art of Killing plain and simple."

I remember Green beret has fought before. Keith Hackney was a Navy Seal for 8 years. I also doubt you really know that much about MMA, you just seem like someone who hates on simply because it 'opposes' traditional martial arts. How many active military personell learn Chinese martial arts? That doesn't go to validate or invalidate Chinese forms.

yes, Pride FC and UFC are sports organizations, they want to keep their fighters in good form so they can fight again to entertain the crowd. But even with rules, it is still closer to actually seeing who's the strongest. Maybe it's just me, but I put more credit into actually watching a fight than just reading about a style, and the environment of MMA is that of athletes training year round to fight, I think that has some credibility.

do you want to see throat crushing and eye gouging? Find vale tudo matches. That means 'anything goes'. Literally. Somewhat common in Brazil.

It just seems defenders of Chinese styles just think up of various excuses as to why Chinese martial artists are nonexistant in the modern martial arts world. There are no Chinese in any MMA organizations, or any that fight in vale tudo matches. When it comes down to it, they have never fought in them, not at all. It is ok to say that some discourage competitive fighting, but then to claim utter superiority when having proven nothing at all seems wrong.

I'd love to see Chinese martial artists come in and kick ***, but it's never happened! There's gotta be some way to get Chinese into MMA.


Truth be told, alot of 'traditional martial arts' guys in early UFC really weren't masters and mostly full of hot air.
It would be fantastic to have someone who is credibly well trained and in exellent shape fight in MMA.
I really shouldn't say that TCM's are inferior, it's more... they're unproven. I just don't see any of it in these fights.

It would be like... if someone is awesome at basketball, but you never see him play, and he doesn't play people in the NBA. What credibility does he have?


http://www.putfile.c...php?n=hahahomie
but Kungfu still works on occasion

Edited by TMPikachu, 20 July 2005 - 11:25 AM.

[urofpersia]

Ok, I'll try to find some.  Though have you seen one of HK's latest, House of Fury?  I thought the scenes there were some of the best I've ever seen, not the showy, useless, flying stuff, but very business-like, efficient moves. Still, I might have been completely hoodwinked.

How about Jet Li?  Is his training in wu shu completely useless as well?  I was told he was a champion of it back in the day, but I don't know what that means in terms of real fighting outside the Mainland.

I doubt he is much of a fighter, wushu is mostly a demonstrative competition today. House of fury only looks good compared to other flicks, as for efficient moves, not really from what I can see. Pretty inefficient ones from what I remember and some that doesnt look like it could punch out of a paper-bag. It should be noted the external moves for chinese martial arts is only part of the game.

Any series or other movies people can recommend with 'real' fighting?  I ask because I don't have any good martial arts clubs around here that feature anything Chinese (I guess these are rare anywhere?), and other than the big screen, which is sadly polluted with fake fighting, I don't have other outlets to watch people who know some real wuyi.

Hmm, tough one, I dont really watch much fighing movies so I dont really know. Chinese Martial Arts is not really rare, you can learn it quite easily in Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan and mainland china. Good masters on the other hand are hard to find.

What traditional styles that're relatively undiluted still exist in practical, practiceable forms today?  Tai Ji I know of, though I've heard people saying it's just as useless as modern wu shu.  I personally don't agree, even though I've never seen anyone fight with this style, but maybe someone can enlighten me.

Too many to name. And it is considered bad form to call it Taiji because people associate with those grandmas practicing it in the park in the mornings. Real Taijiquan emphasizes on breathing exercises followed by form and Tuishou 推手。 Without any of the 3 Taiji Quan cannot be an effective martial art. There are also various schools of Taijiquan from Chen, Yang, Zhang, Wu and other lesser known schools. Even within the supposedly same style there are some differences. Some are regarded as more effective than others in combat. It also takes quite some time to train up to a level where Taiji Quan is effective. If you are looking to protect yourself in a street-fight in a short time better look for another style. If however you are looking for something that will be a life-time lifestyle and philosophy I would highly recommend Taijiquan. BTW, to a lot of proponents the purpose of learning martial arts is to avoid fighting. If you are learning martial arts for the sake of fighting then perhaps Chinese martial arts isnt for you.

Edited by urofpersia, 20 July 2005 - 10:28 AM.

[TMPikachu]

actually...


in K-1 (Striking) Cung Le is a three time champion, a Vietnamese guy who uses Chinese MA.


http://www.cungle.co...ngle/about.html

and MMA is not some completely foreign Western american thing.


MMA grew from traditional martial arts. You could say it began in Japan. Argh, I can't remember his name, but a jujitsu master introduced it to Brazil, where the Gracie family made their MMA style famous in vale tudo competitions.

"Someone who's worked in kung-fu for 15 years would easily get beaten by someone who has trained in kickboxing and wrestling for only one year"
approximated quote from Bruce Lee, more or less.

Mixed Martial Arts IS Martial Arts. It is Bruce Lee's jeetkundo philosophy, incorporate what works, discard what doesn't. A few years ago people thought "TaeKwonDo style highkicks never work in real fighting!" because in MMA fights they just didn't work. But recently people like Mirko 'Cro Cop' have been using high kicks, or even spinning kicks to great effect. People who really know how to use kicks came into the game, and showed that it can work in MMA fights. It's a continually evolving art, martial arts.
I would be so happy if a kung-fu fighter could whoop standard MMA's left and right, as it would be bringing more to the MMA world, taking the game even further.

Edited by TMPikachu, 20 July 2005 - 11:20 AM.

[Wujiang]

Ok, I'll try to find some.  Though have you seen one of HK's latest, House of Fury?  I thought the scenes there were some of the best I've ever seen, not the showy, useless, flying stuff, but very business-like, efficient moves. Still, I might have been completely hoodwinked.

That was one of those movies I was damning to the deepest dungeons of hell to. None of those actors could fight out of a paper bag and zero training on traditional arts. That girl's sad attempt at Taiji could only be matched in its pathetic-ness with Uma Thuman's Tiger & Crane.

How about Jet Li?  Is his training in wu shu completely useless as well?  I was told he was a champion of it back in the day, but I don't know what that means in terms of real fighting outside the Mainland.

8 time champion. But if you compare his stuff from his mainland movie days with the stuff from HK you will see the difference. Thats because in HK he had fight cheographers who was trained in the traditional arts. But even then it was a far cry from the 70s movies as already we see the commercialization of martial arts in movies.

Any series or other movies people can recommend with 'real' fighting?  I ask because I don't have any good martial arts clubs around here that feature anything Chinese (I guess these are rare anywhere?), and other than the big screen, which is sadly polluted with fake fighting, I don't have other outlets to watch people who know some real wuyi.

There were a number made during the 80s. If memory serves, the fist of fury made back then was ok. The guy who played Chen Zhen was the same guy who played Beast in the recently made Kung Fu Hustle (can't remember the name).

What traditional styles that're relatively undiluted still exist in practical, practiceable forms today?  Tai Ji I know of, though I've heard people saying it's just as useless as modern wu shu.  I personally don't agree, even though I've never seen anyone fight with this style, but maybe someone can enlighten me.

How big a list do you want ? And don't say as many as I can give