169 replies to this topic

[Wujiang]

Real Taijiquan emphasizes on breathing exercises followed by form and Tuishou 推手。 Without any of the 3 Taiji Quan cannot be an effective martial art.

You forgot actual application practice. Tuishou is only sparring that trains a specific area of the art. Not the actual fighting part

There are also various schools of Taijiquan from Chen, Yang, Zhang, Wu and other lesser known schools. Even within the supposedly same style there are some differences. Some are regarded as more effective than others in combat. 

Correct. The 5 main branches are Chen, Yang, Wu (Ng in cantonese), Wu (Mo in cantonese), and Sun. All are great for combat. Although personal experience leaves me tending more towards Wu (Mo)

It also takes quite some time to train up to a level where Taiji Quan is effective. If you are looking to protect yourself in a street-fight in a short time better look for another style. If however you are looking for something that will be a life-time lifestyle and philosophy I would highly recommend Taijiquan.

I would say around 20-30 years. It is true though. Taiji itself is a very long-term investment.

If you look into the history of the late Qing dynasty when Taiji really came up, as well as the application of the techniques, one will find that Yang style Taiji was actually designed for fighting wrestling moves (possibly mongol or manchu in origin). Wrestling was a compulsory subject for the imperial military and therefore THE most popular system back then. Yang Laochan (aka invincible Yang) managed to beat the head military instructor in Beijing. Although the dates are not clear, but evidence seem to point that Yang style Taiji was influenced (if not based off) by the targeted style of wrestling.

BTW, to a lot of proponents the purpose of learning martial arts is to avoid fighting. If you are learning martial arts for the sake of fighting then perhaps Chinese martial arts isnt for you.

Yes and No. This is actually style-dependent. styles like Tanglangquan was developed by the bandits of the Shandong area. These blokes were pretty much illiterate and had no moral and character education at all. Because of their occupation, their style was designed to be agressive and beat-him-until-he-cries. They are very much made for the sake of fighting. While other styles like those developed by the monks and/or upper class had more grace and courtesy. Humility is actually built into the style itself. If one does not pocess these qualities, they won't really be able to use the style to its full potential.

[ShanXiYan]

That was one of those movies I was damning to the deepest dungeons of hell to.

All righty then, guess they employ good hoodwinkers in modern movies. Though those Taiji moves did look really weak and fake even to me. Some of the staff/rod techniques they used I actually did recognize as not that useless so I don't think they made absolutely everything up. (Everything in the very first scene looked pretty lame though, but I liked the one-on-one fights later on. But I guess they're all for show in the end, eh?)

I'm personally not trying to find a style for myself or anything. I just want to get more informed in general so I don't help spread ignorance on the subject if I can help it. Kind of like the floppy Chinese sword myth that's somehow become truth in many people's minds.

How big a list do you want ? And don't say as many as I can give

I don't, but maybe the top 10 major, most influencial and still traditionally useful styles, or something like that? In my head, there are several schools of different styles, but I don't know if they're the stuff of wuxia novels or history, or commercialism, though I think that's inevitable.

[CARDINAL009]

The superiority of a marital art system can be tested through duels and combat.

Most of the time, it starts with the development of strategy and tactics. @ the end, it's all about execution.

[Wujiang]

I don't, but maybe the top 10 major, most influencial and still traditionally useful styles, or something like that?  In my head, there are several schools of different styles, but I don't know if they're the stuff of wuxia novels or history, or commercialism, though I think that's inevitable.

I'll give you 20

Shaolin, Tanglang, Yingzhou-fanzi, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Choi Li Fut, Bagua, Baji, Piqua, Mizong, Lohan, Taiji, Hsing I, Xing I, Bak Mei, Lungying, Nan-Tanglang, Taising-pekqua, Yau Kung Men, Bahe

Note I used cantonese for southern arts and pinyin for northern arts.

Edited by Wujiang, 20 July 2005 - 10:03 PM.

[urofpersia]

You forgot actual application practice. Tuishou is only sparring that trains a specific area of the art. Not the actual fighting part

My point was that without the above 3, even actual application is not enough to be effective. Every martial arts needs application practice. Tuishou training is actually broader than what most folks think it is supposed to train. It is to train up a person's Ting Jin 听劲 or awareness of their environment/opponent. Without this training Taijiquan cannot be truly effective in an actual fight, which is why I find it lamentable that some Taijiquan masters these days are de-emphasizing on Tuishou and focus more on form.

Yes and No. This is actually style-dependent. styles like Tanglangquan was developed by the bandits of the Shandong area. These blokes were pretty much illiterate and had no moral and character education at all. Because of their occupation, their style was designed to be agressive and beat-him-until-he-cries. They are very much made for the sake of fighting. While other styles like those developed by the monks and/or upper class had more grace and courtesy. Humility is actually built into the style itself. If one does not pocess these qualities, they won't really be able to use the style to its full potential.

The origin of the martial art certainly but I meant as in how it is taught today, the philosophy of not seeking out fights I thought would have been considered a virtue among good masters these days including those teaching TangLang Quan. Of course this is an ideal, we all know examples of folks who dont.

[urofpersia]

Although Chinese Martial Arts is Flowery, It is effective if used properly by someone who knows how to fight with it.  I'm tired of everyone saying that Shaolin is pretty but uneffective.

To be fair, there are a number of Chinese martial arts which are not flowery at all, including Shaolin ones. Most of the time you see the flowery ones precisely because they look good, not because they are effective.

It should be noted Wushu as a modern sport no longer emphasizes the martial application, form and demonstration of it is the focus, as such it is only natural it would look flowery even if the original form is not really that showy.

[sifu_darkfist]

It is a common defense for people to say "oh well, it's too deadly, you can't use it in a sport..."

The style from Japan which becaome Brazillian Jiujitsu proved that wrong. Learning 'killing' moves without ever practicing them is not as practical as being able to practice less fatal moves constantly.
Someone who can train constantly in the application of not-so-fatal moves will gain great experience in what he can actually do. Someone who learns 'killing moves' but can't actually practice them has little experience with it.

Brazil is also known as a rather unruly country in certain parts, where street fights break out between rival schools. The martial arts world of Brazil is something like that of a Shaw brothers film! (well, maybe not as grandiose). There are rival schools with students that seek each other out to fight and see who's stronger.

"as for the claims of Russian Special forces when was the last time an on leave army ranger fought in the MMA fiasco? never.. and they never will because they put the MArtial in MArtial arts the military art of Killing plain and simple."

I remember Green beret has fought before. Keith Hackney was a Navy Seal for 8 years. I also doubt you really know that much about MMA, you just seem like someone who hates on simply because it 'opposes' traditional martial arts. How many active military personell learn Chinese martial arts? That doesn't go to validate or invalidate Chinese forms. 

yes, Pride FC and UFC are sports organizations, they want to keep their fighters in good form so they can fight again to entertain the crowd. But even with rules, it is still closer to actually seeing who's the strongest. Maybe it's just me, but I put more credit into actually watching a fight than just reading about a style, and the environment of MMA is that of athletes training year round to fight, I think that has some credibility.

do you want to see throat crushing and eye gouging? Find vale tudo matches. That means 'anything goes'. Literally. Somewhat common in Brazil.

It just seems defenders of Chinese styles just think up of various excuses as to why Chinese martial artists are nonexistant in the modern martial arts world. There are no Chinese in any MMA organizations, or any that fight in vale tudo matches. When it comes down to it, they have never fought in them, not at all. It is ok to say that some discourage competitive fighting, but then to claim utter superiority when having proven nothing at all seems wrong.

I'd love to see Chinese martial artists come in and kick ***, but it's never happened! There's gotta be some way to get Chinese into MMA.
Truth be told, alot of 'traditional martial arts' guys in early UFC really weren't masters and mostly full of hot air.
It would be fantastic to have someone who is credibly well trained and in exellent shape fight in MMA.
I really shouldn't say that TCM's are inferior, it's more... they're unproven. I just don't see any of it in these fights.

It would be like... if someone is awesome at basketball, but you never see him play, and he doesn't play people in the NBA. What credibility does he have?
http://www.putfile.c...php?n=hahahomie
but Kungfu still works on occasion

Its not me that needs to defend any art. Just because i am a sifu of Praying mantis and other chinese artsdoes not make me a traditionalist. I was clearly pointing out that MMA is a sport not a battlefield style of which i am ucustomed to through my military background.
Also you used the operative word a FORMER beret fought. my claim was an active duty troop not former. Futhermore, i dont need to see my style on PPV the combat fighting i use is used on battlefields today period. Also a true martial artist in the martial or miltary tradition acknowledges the lethality of combat. I carry a glock model 30 10 round capacity 45 cal. as my primary, my knife is my secondary and my body is my tertiary. In the military such as Rangers the M4 or mp5 is primary, barretta 92f is secondary knife is tertiary and body is quartenary.
im sorry MMA HAS NO place on the real field of battle. ANyone with this experience will not waste time dancing with someone on the streets . if they need to fall back on the human body they will try to will finish it in 1 ot 2 blows for those that fail there is the threat of multiple assailants or death. So i submit the most effective PROVEN martial arts is that of any special forces in the United States since at the moment that military is the battle PROVEN top military in the world.
Niether Gracie Nor david carridine fit this profile.

[Yang Zongbao]

With all due respect- there's not a lot of real martial arts being practiced in the Shaolin Temple itself now...that's been changed more to a performing arts school. No doubt however, it once existed...but never was it the father of all martial arts.
And Chinese forms are not always flowery. That's not the point of any martial arts, Chinese or otherwise. The point of martial arts is to kill. And flowery is not an important or designating aspect of CMA.

[Wujiang]

Perhaps I should explain why Chinese martial arts moves are "flowery". By flowery I mean techniques that seem to be doing nothing more than waving their hands around in circles or stuff that doesn't have any obvious use.

The martial arts market back in the old days is no different than it is today. A cutthroat arena of marketing and promotion where only the strong survives. The difference however is that, a good way to get rid that rival school down the street that is taking all your customers (aka students) is not to spray paint their door, but to go in a open a can of whoopass on their head master. If they lose, they move to another town. If they win, you move. As simple as that.

"know your opponent, know yourself, and in a hundred battles you will prevail". Something that is extremely important in Chinese martial arts where each system's sophistication means that there are alot of moves in are unexpected and therefore hard to defend against. If you want to secure your victory, the best way is to know what your opponent might throw at you during the match. As such, alot of espionage and peaking through the window went on between schools. The counter-spying techniques was to make sure you opponent who may or may not be hiding in the shadows while you train does not know how to interpret what they see. To do this, techniques are modified slightly so that they won't look like their intended use to an outsider while the practitioner understands it enough to still get the effect of practice.

Hence, a great deal of techniques are actually hidden inside the moves via slight modification into a more 'flowery' form. The application are still there, but it is just a matter that outsiders won't know. The difference between these moves and contempary PRC 'martial arts' is that there is no application hidden in those moves. So their techniques are purely display with no substance

Edited by Wujiang, 21 July 2005 - 10:37 AM.

[Zuo Zongtang]

2) Yes, Wushu is very flowery, with little substance. The stances, etc, have been elongated. The arms are held straight in punching, and knees are locked in stances. It looks pretty, but is also pretty useless- and even pretty dangerous when you fight someone who knows how to exploit these faults.

Where did you get this? Cause I was taught by my Wushu masters to kept my arms bent while punching to avoid getting my arms shattered into pieces by a block.

[Yang Zongbao]

Your master is smart indeed- for my masters, all 3 Shaolin Monks, really put alot of stress on elongated stances, locked joints, and straight punches...and when I tried to put real fighting aspects from Taiji training into the form, I got busted hard.
Then your "flowery" means pretty to look at, and not "Hua Fa". But of course, pretty, useful or no, is not stressed by Chinese MArtial Arts, nor is it a designating trait.

[sifu_darkfist]

You forgot actual application practice. Tuishou is only sparring that trains a specific area of the art. Not the actual fighting part
Correct. The 5 main branches are Chen, Yang, Wu (Ng in cantonese), Wu (Mo in cantonese), and Sun. All are great for combat. Although personal experience leaves me tending more towards Wu (Mo)
I would say around 20-30 years. It is true though. Taiji itself is a very long-term investment.

If you look into the history of the late Qing dynasty when Taiji really came up, as well as the application of the techniques, one will find that Yang style Taiji was actually designed for fighting wrestling moves (possibly mongol or manchu in origin). Wrestling was a compulsory subject for the imperial military and therefore THE most popular system back then. Yang Laochan (aka invincible Yang) managed to beat the head military instructor in Beijing. Although the dates are not clear, but evidence seem to point that Yang style Taiji was influenced (if not based off) by the targeted style of wrestling.
Yes and No. This is actually style-dependent. styles like Tanglangquan was developed by the bandits of the Shandong area. These blokes were pretty much illiterate and had no moral and character education at all. Because of their occupation, their style was designed to be agressive and beat-him-until-he-cries. They are very much made for the sake of fighting. While other styles like those developed by the monks and/or upper class had more grace and courtesy. Humility is actually built into the style itself. If one does not pocess these qualities, they won't really be able to use the style to its full potential.

it is funny you should mention Tang Lang Quan and its purpose. that is actually my style of choice and one i have designed new more modern techniques from. My question to you would be: What About Wang Lang do you not subscribe to the legend? Your mention of the bandits in Shangdong rings true and makes logical sense in that there is very little defensive in the Praying Mantis system. However i would be reluctant to attribute all of its splendor to bandits for it has enjoyed the attention of many worthy masters such as Wei Hsaio Tung , and my other grandmaster (the Unifier of all 5 substyles) Su Yu Chang.

[CARDINAL009]

it is funny you should mention Tang Lang Quan and its purpose. that is actually my style of choice and one i have designed new more modern techniques from. My question to you would be: What About Wang Lang do you not subscribe to the legend? Your mention of the bandits in Shangdong rings true and makes logical sense in that there is very little defensive in the Praying Mantis system. However i would be reluctant to attribute all of its splendor to bandits for it has enjoyed the attention of many worthy masters such as Wei Hsaio Tung , and my other grandmaster (the Unifier of all 5 substyles) Su Yu Chang.

Q: Since you are a Tang Lang Quan player, what's the great distinction between the different branches of Tang Lang Quan?