169 replies to this topic

[TMPikachu]

"I would live to see this guy's students eat their own **** at the hands of a Chinese master. But there are no Chinese masters who compete. "

TM, careful. This kind of comment's a little out of line.

ah, sorry. I just find it dissapointing that Chinese are so unactive in the martial arts world today. So Americans can openly badmouth Chinese schools and brag about all the Chinese 'masters' they've whooped, while the total lack of Chinese in MMA reflects that weakness.


""
"I just want to see some Chinese in PFC damnit. Warhead, why don't any of your violent friends seek out such things? Seriously, it's making a living with fighting. Sure there's rules and such, but within the confines of those rules, it'd be interesting to see how well Chinese can do."

Think, Who is going to provide them the Visa, the money to America? Wait who is even going to teach them english so they would even know UFC exist! If its that easy, we wouldn't have so many illegal immigrants in the first place.""

PFC is based in Japan. There seems to be plenty of Russians, Americans, Brazillians who can get their way over. Bluenote's mention of the Beijing Jiujitsu society is some hope on this. Though I do not know exactly how these sorts of things are managed, I imagine that the schools the fighters belong to help them in getting to big tournaments. It's true that there's many obstacles to overcome, but I feel like there's little if no enthusiasm in the first place for this sort of thing to happen. Though hearing about the existence of the Beijing Jujitsu association is nice.

warlordgeneral- Bluming and his students have beaten Japanese and other Asian fighters with what they know. Racist or not they're a successful bunch. They're the worst kind of j***, the kind who prove themselves 'right' ., which is why I'd like to see Chinese fighters compete.


"Q: Is anyone willing these days to dedicated their whole life to studying martial arts?"
The people who compete in things like UFC and PFC, you can say they dedicate their whole lives to Martial Arts. Training year round for their fights, and if they're successful, when they reach retirement age they can then train the next generation of martial artists.

Edited by TMPikachu, 28 November 2005 - 06:09 PM.

[CARDINAL009]

"Q: Is anyone willing these days to dedicated their whole life to studying martial arts?"
The people who compete in things like UFC and PFC, you can say they dedicate their whole lives to
Martial Arts. Training year round for their fights, and if they're successful, when they
reach retirement age they can then train the next generation of martial artists.

Most of the fighters have a longitivity of five years. The injuries they accumulate can be fatal as they age.

Pro Thai boxers ( as in Thailand) usually quit by the time they're 25. They rarely make it past the age of 30.

Edited by CARDINAL009, 28 November 2005 - 06:43 PM.

[TMPikachu]

Most of the fighters have a longitivity of five years. The injuries they accumulate can be fatal as they age.

Pro Thai boxers ( as in Thailand) usually quit by the time they're 25. They rarely make it past the age of 30.

fighting's a hard life to live. Wouldn't you say they still dedicate their lives to it? It's threatening to long term health, that's a big sacrifice.

[CARDINAL009]

fighting's a hard life to live. Wouldn't you say they still dedicate their lives to it? It's threatening to long term health, that's a big sacrifice.

Many yrs ago, fought in a tournament. lost my bout due to a disqualification.

He brused my ribs because a lapse of concentration on my part.
Asked myself the question "Was it worth?"
After that, never fought again.

Of Course, gave the opposition the same thing & gave him a black eye. So he couldn't compete in the finals.

Lesson: There is more than life than winning a trophy made of plastic.
<At least most of my older chess trophies were made out of metal and good wood.>

After yrs of reflecting on that experience, there is no glory in remedy combatting.

Edited by CARDINAL009, 28 November 2005 - 07:08 PM.

[BlueNote]

Most of the fighters have a longitivity of five years. The injuries they accumulate can be fatal as they age.

Pro Thai boxers ( as in Thailand) usually quit by the time they're 25. They rarely make it past the age of 30.

True, pro Muay Thai fighters in Thailand rarely make it past their mid-20's. But by then they may have been fighting professionally for 10-15 years and had 100's of fights.

In contrast to Western Boxers who absorb 100's if not 1000's of punches in their 10-12 round fights and in the sparring leading up to the bout. MMA matches often end in 1-2 rounds and imo cause less long term damage. And unlike boxing or muay thai is more humane as you can honorably "tap" out.

Pride/UFC/K-1 are ring sports. The competitors are there to make the $250,000 per fight payday. Unlike the early mma matches when it was more underground, the fighters I would say are not fighting for the honor of style vs style superiority. Under the rules of sport mma, the superior styles/techniques have already been shown.

Under the rules of the street in real no holds barred.....best to carry a gun or run like hell.

Edited by BlueNote, 29 November 2005 - 01:00 AM.

[tlr]

I feel strongly that Kung Fu (as commonly defined) offers much more than Karate in the sense that it blurs the boundaries between block, trap, strike, throw, and hold. Movements serve many purposes within Kung Fu while maintaining a unique beauty to the observer when performed against a shadow opponent. Karate generally maintains clear definitions of technique and often lacks the grace attributed to forms within the styles we attribute to the Kung Fu family. Karate's benefits are quickly viable but the strengths of a kung fu training, although perhaps more difficult to attain, are far greater. In other words, karate offers a quicker payoff for most situations at an earlier point in training, but kung fu offers subtleties which, once mastered, will decimate even the most hardened opponent.

But which style of Kung Fu is 'best?' There is alot of opinion. It depends on your preference and body type. Are you a crane, or are you a tiger? Why should the crane fight as a tiger when God has given him wings and long legs to evade his enemy? And even within a style there are choices to make. To quote my master, the path "best" for you depends on many things, one of the most overlooked being your age! At a young age, the animal methods within Shaolin are beneficial. As you become a man, you may excel with the sword, having learned to extend your qi control to the tip of your blade. As you grow older, you may find yourself gaining much from the disciplines of joint locking (Chin-na), expending less precious energy to control younger, more energetic opponents.

Edited by tlr, 30 November 2005 - 04:14 PM.

[Ta-ts'in Centurion]

and MMA is not some completely foreign Western american thing.
MMA grew from traditional martial arts. You could say it began in Japan. Argh, I can't remember his name, but a jujitsu master introduced it to Brazil, where the Gracie family made their MMA style famous in vale tudo competitions.

That would be Mitusyo Maeda.


We should keep in mind that Maeda was not just a judo/jiu-jitsu exponent--he was also a champion Lancashire (catch-as-catch-can) wrestler. As Renzo Gracie black belt John Danaher noted in Mastering Jujutsu, Maeda included submission holds and other techniques that were not part of the Japanese grappling syllabus. There's even a famous photo of Maeda wearing Western wrestling tights, holding his opponent in a half-Nelson/hammerlock combo, which happens to be a standard technique from CACC.

We should also consider the Ancient Greek Olympic combat sport known as pankration (lit., "all powers"), which was arguably the first organized manifestation of what we refer to as MMA.

[Ta-ts'in Centurion]

There is no single best martial art (as various arts have been developed for various applications), but the one thing that all of the truly successful ones have in common is that they incorporate some sort of "live" (free-sparring) training--randori, the assault of Western fencing, bouting, whatever you want to call it.

We have ancient Egyptian illustrations of fencing swordsmen/stickfighters.

We know from Vegetius' Epitoma Rei Militaris that Roman legionary recruits engaged in competitive matches with rebated weapons.

Although rarely discussed these days, it is known that, during the 19th century, "rural fencers" from various parts of Japan defeated more cosmopolitan samurai. The "rural fencers" emphasized free-bouting in their training, as opposed to kata that their city-dwelling opponents chiefly relied upon.

Judo's feature of randori set it apart from many of the classical jujutsu schools.

The utility of Western boxing--often derided in TMA circles as "mere sport"--has been proved time and again in various full-contact formats.

Dynamic arts would include Western boxing (boxe Anglais), Western wrestling (amateur freestyle, Greco-Roman, and old professional catch-as-catch-can), fencing (Italian & French schools), judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Russian sambo (an amalgam of judo and various indigenous Eurasian wrestling methods), sumo, kendo, jukendo, Filipino martial arts (eskrima, arnis de mano, & "kali"), savate (boxe Francais), muay Thai, San Shou (Sand Da) (Chinese full contact kickboxing w/throws), shuai jiao (Chinese wrestling), and various Chinese sword styles (see Scott Rodell's fine book).

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

We should also consider the Ancient Greek Olympic combat sport known as pankration (lit., "all powers"), which was arguably the first organized manifestation of what we refer to as MMA.

The concept of mixing martial arts and find whats effective is nothing new, its common sense. All civilizations in the world did that, if they don't martial arts would never have developed in the first place. Early Chinese Jiaoli was just as early as Greek pankration and call it MMA if you want.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Warhead, you would be interested in Vale Tudo matches in Brazil

They are 'anything goes', literally

The Gracie family, known for their Brazillian Jiujitsu, gained fame through competing in that environment.

I know about these matches, and they are little different from the Lei Tai matches of China during the Republican period, where its also close to anything goes. The problem is the environment rather than the style themselves, the PRC is much more peaceful nowadays and street fights are no longer that common. Its really the fighting experience of the fighters thats important, rather than the style. Today the best fighters in China are Sanda fighters(not taking into account prodigies in some traditional styles that might come out once in a while), and for many political reasons, they simply don't compete outside of China, and you might be interested in the new Chinese MMA program, art of war fighting championship, where Chinese fighters and their sanda skills are dominanting the ring.

As for UFC matches, just recently, Sanda fighter Cung Le has beaten old UFC legend Frank Shammrock in Strikeforce MMA competition and got a championship. Although Frank is now old and weak compared to the top UFC fighters today, Cung LE is also an old fighter in Sanda circles and probably won't even rank top 10 in the Sanda world.

Also, Brazilian Jujitsu don't even dominate today, it hasn't dominated for a decade already. Any fighter with pure BJJ background got schooled in MMA fights where they mix styles up. Chinese Sanda rarely fought BJJ without crosstraining in other ma involved, so its pointless to say which is the best single style even in MMA circles, not does that question have any meaning.

[Taran ap Dafydd]

Has Mexican Judo already been mentioned? I'd like to toss that in the ring as the "Best Martial Art"

[Guan Yan]

I believe there is a difference between martial ART and martial SPORT, mma and boxing are not arts they are sport, I think the best martial art is an art that is practical in real life like for example Bak Mei or Lung Ying Quan.

[ZhongYuan]

San Da, combines traditional Shuai Jiao and Qin Na with modern kick boxing, best thing about is; you have authentic non bs teachers unlike many of the traditional ones esp wing chun with hordes of fake teachers

[YvesYew]

Because of the historical influence. Chinese even lost their traditional costume during the Qing Dynasty. They were not allowed to wear anything else but the Manchurian clothes. Nowadays when you see the martial art performers, their kung fu wearing is officially the Manchurian Costume, not the CHinese's.

[polar_zen]

There is no "official" kung fu clothing. Different schools wear different clothes, most choose to follow Qing tradition.