89 replies to this topic

[Kenneth]

Zheng He set up memorials to his journies himself in stone of which the text transcript has survived of 2 of them.
Here is one in full in the Admirals own words. Who is going to tell Zheng He he himself left out the best bits?;
http://www.hist.umn....urce/source.htm

Record of the miraculous answer (to prayer) of the goddess the Celestial Spouse.

The Imperial Ming Dynasty unifying seas and continents, surpassing the three dynasties even goes beyond the Han and Tang dynasties. The countries beyond the horizon and from the ends of the earth have all become subjects and to the most western of the western or the most northern of the northern countries, however far they may be, the distance and the routes may be calculated. Thus the barbarians from beyond the seas, though their countries are truly distant, "with double translation" have come to audience bearing precious objects and presents.

The Emperor, approving of their loyalty and sincerity, has ordered us (Zheng) He and others at the head of several tens of thousands of officers and flag-troops to ascend more than one hundred large ships to go and confer presents on them in order to make manifest the transforming power of the (imperial) virtue and to treat distant people with kindness. From the third year of Yongle (1405) till now we have seven times received the commission of ambassadors to countries of the western ocean. The barbarian countries which we have visited are: by way of Zhancheng (Champa), Zhaowa (Java), Sanfoqi (Palembang) and Xianlo (Siam) crossing straight over to Xilanshan (Ceylon) in South India, Guli (Calicut), and Kezhi (Cochin), we have gone to the western regions Hulumosi (Hormuz), Adan (Aden), Mugudushu (Mogadishu), altogether more than thirty countries large and small. We have traversed more than one hundred thousand li of immense water spaces and have beheld in the ocean huge waves like mountains rising sky-high, and we have set eyes on barbarian regions far away hidden in a blue transparency of light vapours, while our sails loftily unfurled like clouds day and night continued their course (rapid like that) of a star, traversing those savage waves as if we were treading a public thoroughfare. Truly this was due to the majesty and the good fortune of the Court and moreover we owe it to the protecting virtue of the divine Celestial Spouse.

The power of the goddess having indeed been manifested in previous times has been abundantly revealed in the present generation. In the midst of the rushing waters it happened that, when there was a hurricane, suddenly there was a divine lantern shining in the mast, and as soon as this miraculous light appeared the danger was appeased, so that even in the danger of capsizing one felt reassured that there was no cause for fear. When we arrived in the distant countries we captured alive those of the native kings who were not respectful and exterminated those barbarian robbers who were engaged in piracy, so that consequently the sea route was cleansed and pacified and the natives put their trust in it. All this is due to the favours of the goddess.

It is not easy to enumerate completely all the cases where the goddess has answered (prayers). Previously in a memorial to the Court we have requested that her virtue be registered in the Court of Sacrificial Worship and a temple be built at Nanking on the bank of the dragon river where regular sacrifices should be transmitted for ever. We have respectfully received an Imperial commemorative composition exalting the miraculous favours, which is the highest recompense and praise indeed. However, the miraculous power of the goddess resides wherever one goes. As for the temporary palace on the southern mountain at Changle, I have, at the head of the fleet, frequently resided there awaiting the (favorable) wind to set sail for the ocean.

We, Zheng He and others, on the one hand have received the high favour of a gracious commission of our Sacred Lord, and on the other hand carry to the distant barbarians the benefits of respect and good faith (on their part). Commanding the multitudes on the fleet and (being responsible for) a quantity of money and valuables in the face of the violence of the winds and the nights our one fear is not to be able to succeed; how should we then dare not to serve our dynasty with exertion of all our loyalty and the gods with the utmost sincerity? How would it be possible not to realize what is the source of the tranquillity of the fleet and the troops and the salvation on the voyage both going and returning? Therefore we have made manifest the virtue of the goddess on stone and have moreover recorded the years and months of the voyages to the barbarian countries and the return in order to leave (the memory) for ever.

I. In the third year of Yongle (1405) commanding the fleet we went to Guli (Calicut) and other countries. At that time the pirate Chen Zuyi had gathered his followers in the country of Sanfoqi (Palembang), where he plundered the native merchants. When he also advanced to resist our fleet, supernatural soldiers secretly came to the rescue so that after one beating of the drum he was annihilated. In the fifth year (1407) we returned.

II. In the fifth year of Yongle (1407) commanding the fleet we went to Zhaowa (Java), Guli (Calicut), Kezhi (Cochin) and Xianle (Siam). The kings of these countries all sent as tribute precious objects, precious birds and rare animals. In the seventh year (1409) we returned.

III. In the seventh year of Yongle (1409) commanding the fleet we went to the countries (visited) before and took our route by the country of Xilanshan (Ceylon). Its king Yaliekunaier (Alagakkonara) was guilty of a gross lack of respect and plotted against the fleet. Owing to the manifest answer to prayer of the goddess (the plot) was discovered and thereupon that king was captured alive. In the ninth year (1411) on our return the king was presented (to the throne) (as a prisoner); subsequently he received the Imperial favour of returning to his own country.

IV. In the eleventh year of Yongle (1413) commanding the fleet we went to Hulumosi (Ormuz) and other countries. In the country of Sumendala (Samudra) there was a false king Suganla (Sekandar) who was marauding and invading his country. Its king Cainu-liabiding (Zaynu-'l-Abidin) had sent an envoy to the Palace Gates in order to lodge a complaint. We went thither with the official troups under our command and exterminated some and arrested (other rebels), and owing to the silent aid of the goddess we captured the false king alive. In the thirteenth year (1415) on our return he was presented (to the Emperor as a prisoner). In that year the king of the country of Manlajia (Malacca) came in person with his wife and son to present tribute.

V. In the fifteenth year of Yongle (1417) commanding the fleet we visited the western regions. The country of Hulumosi (Ormuz) presented lions, leopards with gold spots and large western horses. The country of Adan (Aden) presented qilin of which the native name is culafa (giraffe), as well as the long-horned animal maha (oryx). The country of Mugudushu (Mogadishu) presented huafu lu ("striped" zebras) as well as lions. The country of Bulawa (Brava) presented camels which run one thousand li as well as camel-birds (ostriches). The countries of Zhaowa (Java) and Guli (Calicut) presented the animal miligao. They all vied in presenting the marvellous objects preserved in the mountains or hidden in the seas and the beautiful treasures buried in the sand or deposited on the shores. Some sent a maternal uncle of the king, others a paternal uncle or a younger brother of the king in order to present a letter of homage written on gold leaf as well as tribute.

VI. In the nineteenth year of Yongle (1421) commanding the fleet we conducted the ambassadors from Hulumosi (Ormuz) and the other countries who had been in attendance at the capital for a long time back to their countries. The kings of all these countries prepared even more tribute than previously.

VII. In the sixth year of Xuande (1431) once more commanding the fleet we have left for the barbarian countries in order to read to them (an Imperial edict) and to confer presents.
We have anchored in this port awaiting a north wind to take the sea, and recalling how previously we have on several occasions received the benefits of the protection of the divine intelligence we have thus recorded an inscription in stone.

End of story really.
More about Menzie's shocking trickery in '1421' (specifically the 2 inscriptions by the admiral too) is at;
http://www.hallofmaa...e...icle&sid=91 (my hat goes off to Bill Hartz)
i.e;

What is important is what Zheng He did not write - nothing about discovering new countries, new continents, new worlds. We are confident that if his fleet had made such discoveries they would have been mentioned. Though ostensibly the tablets were erected by Zheng He to recognize the miraculous and numerous interventions by Tianfei, Levathes notes the following:
“In addition, however, the tablets carefully documented the achievements of each voyage, no doubt as Zheng He surely wished them to be remembered. But familiar as he was by now with the court’s strong opposition to the voyages, he may have been unsure how the official chroniclers would record the expeditions.”

He himself ensured his deed were recorded. These are very specific on total distance (li), #of ALL journies made, the specific names of regions visited, perils faced and such.
There really is NO vaccuum for Menzies to operate in so this is why he doesnt provide the Zheng He inscriptions in full in his awful book...otherwise Zheng He's own words kill his '1421' global discovery myth in the first chapter.

The Ma Yuan text, which you keep suggesting is dubious because it was edited and comes down in a version from 100 years after the time of Zheng He, is actually spot on about specific regions and events on the journies. For first editions of ancient books to survive is a rarity, rather than something to be expected.
The Ma Yuan accounts are no less trustworthy than any valuable text on which Chinese history (or Western history) is based. That original examples do not survive and later editions are the only existing is not new or especially problematic. Even critical works such a Josephus on the history of the Jews is of course likely edited by this does not mean we 'throw the baby out with the bath water'.
Really, if you are so dubious about Ma Yuan consider there are more ancient copies of the New Testament (again none from the actual period) in existence than there are of Julius Caesars 'Gallic Wars'.
Much of what we deduce about the Aztecs and Inca comes from Spanish scholarly sources also, which record a society already destroyed but allow for modern scholars to translate ancient scripts otherwise unknown and understand the beliefs of people who otherwise left only artefacts.
On such a basis should we doubt Josephus when he records the suicide of zealots at Masada or the descriptions of the manner in which the Celtic warriors faced Romans with naked bodies painted with woad or doubt the recorded treatment and lavish attention paid to mummified Inca Kings?
There are also physical markers of Zheng He's journies (and not the silly carvings Menzies attributes to a Chinese fleet) such as in Sri Lanka where a stone was commisioned by Zheng He and is written in several languages. This episode is after Zheng He intervened in ethnic conflict there and again on such details Ma Yuan is quite credible (as to the specific geography and the disposition of people in Vietnam, Indonesia, Sri Lanka and West India.)
There really is no vacuum to move in unless people actually make it by ignoring and omitting what can reasonably be deduced. The records of Zheng He's journey are no more problematic than other episodes in history of which records were lost or the only account is written (or re-written/published) by people of another generation.
Ma Yuan like any text needs to be taken critically but not simply dispensed with.

[Kenneth]

For a recently published account of Zheng He designed for the general or student reader, see Edward Dreyer's <i>Zheng He: China and the Oceans of the Early Ming</i>.

...Highly recommended; if you only read one book on Zheng He, this should be it.
[/url]

Shen Nong,
I am interested to see your avatar of a farmer. There are various late East Zhou coins called 'spade cash' and one from Wang Mang times I have has been called 'cloth' money or 'spade' money is of a simpler type (as opposed to the larger early spade money though). It has a split shape exactly like the grubbing tool in your avatar image.
This has shown me that this really was a form of spade, even if it looks very odd to my modern eyes.
http://www.joelscoins.com/china.htm
In this article they call it 'spade' money or 'pants' money (there is more variety in the East Zhou types and some larger finer types I cant find images of on the internet).

Edited by Kenneth, 12 July 2006 - 09:23 PM.

[Zorigo]

A stride like a tiger, huh?....and faster than a speeding bullet no doubt.

Zheng He is known as a native of Yunnan, and a Muslim, as was his family. Yunnan at the time was still under the authority of the Mongols and this is how Zheng He got caught up in the Ming military action.
I haven't heard it said he was ethnically Mongol or even culturally Mongol, it seems to be a confusion from the way Menzies reports the capture of of his village....after all the Mongols are not Muslims but traditonally shamanistic or nature worshipers. By virtue of geography Zheng He was born in a portion that was still under Mongol control but it doesn't make him a Mongol.

So as i see, while you denying that ZHeng He was not Mongol, you did not prove that he is ethnic Chinese- i mean Han.

[Kenneth]

So as i see, while you denying that ZHeng He was not Mongol, you did not prove that he is ethnic Chinese- i mean Han.

Denying isn't quite the right word, since it implies I am denying something which is contentious.
The truth is that he wasn't a Mongol by any definition. I also didn't attempt to prove he was Han. It wouldn't concern me since I am not a Han Chinese myself.
Zheng He was ethincially Hui.
You are correct he is considered 'non-Han' in terms of geography and culture. Hui is largelly defined by religion, i.e Islam. In the Yuan system of rank by ethnicity (with Southern Chinese at the bottom) the Muslim citizens be less restricted in their social status.
Here is a long peoples daily article on the Hui;http://english.peopl...rities/Hui.html

...Generally speaking, the social position of Huihuis during the Yuan Dynasty was higher than that of the Hans. Nevertheless, they were still subjected to the oppression of Yuan rulers. After going through the hardships of their eastward exodus, they continued to be in the hands of various Mongolian officials, functioning either as herdsmen or as government and army artisans. A fraction of them even were allocated to Mongolian aristocrats to serve as house slaves...
....During the Ming Dynasty, the Hui navigator Zheng He led massive fleets in making as many as seven visits to more than 30 Asian and African countries in 29 years. This unparalleled feat served to promote the friendship as well as economic and cultural exchanges between China and these countries. Zheng He was accompanied by Ma Huan and Ha San, also of Hui origin, who acted as his interpreters. Ma Huan gave a true account of Zheng He's visits in his book Magnificent Tours of Lands Beyond the Ocean, which is of major significance in the study of the history of communication between China and the West.....

Here is a Chinese ethnicity website; (the poulation figures vary even though the article is the same!)
http://www.china.org.../shao-2-hui.htm

With a sizable population of 9,816,802, the Hui ethnic group is one of China's largest ethnic minorities. People of Hui origin can be found in most of the counties and cities throughout the country, especially in the Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region and Gansu, Qinghai, Henan, Hebei, Shandong and Yunnan provinces and the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region

[Zorigo]

Thx, Kenneth for reference websites

So Hui - s are basically/ originally non-Hans

During the early years of the 13th century when Mongolian troops were making their western expeditions, group after group of Islamic-oriented people from Middle Asia, as well as Persians and Arabs, either were forced to move or voluntarily migrated into China. As artisans, tradesmen, scholars, officials and religious leaders, they spread to many parts of the country and settled down mainly to livestock breeding. These people, who were also called Huis or Huihuis because their religious beliefs were identical with people in Anxi, were part of the ancestors to today's Huis. ...................


......It is generally acknowledged that Huihui culture began mainly during the Yuan Dynasty.

Mr Zheng He's origin as not known yet. Interesting

[Tibet Libre]

Just read that a Turkish scholar claimed that the Turks were the first to discover the New World. He interprets some dots on the left side of a 16th century Ottoman map as evidence of Turkish knowledge about the West Indies. He is also of the opinion that the name of Turks & Cayman islands is further proof (seriously).

Perhaps he should meet this submarine dude to coordinate their views: The Ming discovered Americas from the east, the Ottomans from the west.

[Emperor Wang]

Is it true Zheng He was a muslim?

[Yang Zongbao]

Yes.

Hey, would you mind possibly using the search function? Most of your questions like this one are VERY easily solved using it. It'd be great to see you use it. Thanks!

[Emperor Wang]

Hey sorry for that ..im still new to this blogging stuff so would u mind take tht 4 granted?

[Xiao Xian Nu]

Hi Bros & Sistas

Just recently the Legend of Admiral Zheng He (a.k.a Cheng Ho) was hot in Indonesia, along with the upcoming release of the movie "Laksamana Cheng Ho (Admiral Cheng Ho)".

I hadn't been interested in the story of Cheng Ho itself. But since many people around me were talking about him lately, it came to my attention finally. I do know some bits about him, but unfortunately not much I can find in the internet. Here are some footage that I found.

Some books that I read mentioned that Zheng He was purposedly commissioned by the Emperor to spread the power of Ming Dynasty outside the mainland. But I also find other refenses that stated contrarily. It was said that Zheng He's power had gradually increasing, and therefore, became a gruesome royal matter. In order to press his growing power, Zheng He then was assigned to an expedition. It was unclear whether he made his way back to China. Nothing was found in the book that I read. Alternatively, I also ask some elders here, who know the sotry by word (from one generation to another), they believe that cheng Ho didn't make his way back to China. Instead, he lived socially with the native in the Island of Java, till his last breath. May anyone have more information about his political maneuvers please share.


=> Cheng Ho's mosque in Surabaya, East Java, Indonesia
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related => upcoming release of "Laksamana Cheng Ho" (Indonesian version)

Thanks

Edited by Xiao Xian Nu, 19 August 2008 - 05:21 AM.

[liuxing]

I'm interested in this historical personality because he has visited my country before. So, I've read about him in our history book. But, I only know he's Muslim and an eunuch very much later and was really surprised. My history book only said he's an Admiral.

It's sad that most of his records were destroyed after his death. What was the reason for the destruction? What harm has his travel records caused?

Note: I accidentally click the -1 reputation while editing this post. How can I remove it?

Edited by liuxing, 20 June 2011 - 03:31 AM.

[liuxing]

Lacking the hormone testostrone, he would had difficulties to maintain muscle mass and strength, and also body density and strength. However he was portrayed otherwise.

I read about castrati years ago and they were described as unusually tall. Castratis were choirboys that were castrated before puberty to prevent their voice from changing. They were describe as unusually tall, but, not muscular. But, they can grow fat.

The explanation give by one website.

http://www.associate...man_taller.html

The release of testosterone also effects bone growth, and without testes there is far less testosterone. Not enough hormones holler at the epiphyseal plates, or cartilage at the ends of long bones in adolescents, to ossify, or harden, and long bones grow longer than normal.

Edited by liuxing, 20 June 2011 - 03:30 AM.

[muaNXQ]

Zheng He's voyages did not bring any territory directly under Chinese control.

ya
but when his actions are more recorded as xia xi yang(voyage to the western seas), i feel that they are more than that. he even travelled to the southen areas eg. malaysia. He even influences the culture of the area and there is a tale of it.
Zheng He was respected by the malaysians at that time as he was a ming envoy. The chinese emperor confered apon him the tittle of san bao tai jian. Hence he was called san bo kung by the malays. It was said that he was a muslim and most people in malaysis at that time were muslims. He saw that the malaysian's empire was very strong and decided to weaken it so that it would not be a treath to the Chinese empire. He told them to fast(not eat anything)for the entire month as it was act of Ibadah (Worship). many people then starved to death. The people saw that Zheng He was also fasting. However, he showed no signs of stravation. One night, they heard a cat meowing. They knew that cats meow when they see food, or people eating. When they rushed over to investigate, they saw Zheng He eating. Zheng He then explained that they could eat at night only in order to cover up for what he had done. Hence, the malays were very fond of cats as one of them had saved many of their lives.(even till today)
There are also several other stories of Zheng He eg.The durian had grown from Zheng He's feaces, A fish had stipes of Zheng He's fingers on its body as Zheng he had tried to catch it but it escaped.
Hence, one can say that Zheng He's influence on his voyages can be big or small.

[muaNXQ]

Is it true Zheng He was a muslim?

I think so.Zheng He's original surname was Ma. 'Zheng' was conferred also by the emperor. During his time many people in china whose surname is Ma is a muslim. However, becoming an enuch is kind of against his religion.

[liuxing]

Zheng He was respected by the malaysians at that time as he was a ming envoy. The chinese emperor confered apon him the tittle of san bao tai jian. Hence he was called san bo kung by the malays. It was said that he was a muslim and most people in malaysis at that time were muslims. He saw that the malaysian's empire was very strong and decided to weaken it so that it would not be a treath to the Chinese empire. He told them to fast(not eat anything)for the entire month as it was act of Ibadah (Worship). many people then starved to death. The people saw that Zheng He was also fasting. However, he showed no signs of stravation. One night, they heard a cat meowing. They knew that cats meow when they see food, or people eating. When they rushed over to investigate, they saw Zheng He eating. Zheng He then explained that they could eat at night only in order to cover up for what he had done. Hence, the malays were very fond of cats as one of them had saved many of their lives.(even till today)

This story is too unbelievable. A large group of people blindly follow the instruction of Zheng He and not eat for a month?

I also think that fasting has always been a required practice of Muslim, not introduced by Zheng He.

Edited by liuxing, 20 June 2011 - 10:27 PM.