102 replies to this topic

[Heisui]

BTW there are Manchurians and Mongolians in Hong Kong and Guangdong for generations, Although it is keep private because of the prejudice and bigotry.
Some movie actorS are of Manchurian blood.

Edited by Heisui, 19 August 2005 - 09:13 AM.

[MengTzu]

Ignorance. Of the several Manchurian or Mongolian dialects that presently exist, none sound like Guoyi/putonhua! The Hebei language aka Guoyi/putonhua/Manadarin is the National Language of China.  Hong Kong since the early 1980's experienced a economic boom(became rich) and later real estate crash which has led HKongers to become arrogant in insulting and putting down their fellow Chinese. Not my lone impression either! If ALL Chinese are to communicate with one another we have to be able to speak one common language hence Guoyi with out denigating and insulting other  peoples regional dialects that are different from Cantonese. Personally I like Cantonese food but don't like the extremely crowded scorching heat and humidity that is HK, but that doesn't mean I look down upon HK and it's people. I speak Cantonese and it's very different from the Tuoba Xianbei Manchurians/Mongolian & Tujue Xiongnu that founded the Tang Dynasty! In Hong Kong there is more bias against other fellow Chinese than in China itself. Annecdotal experience from others as well.(Brit and other Chinese ) China's economy is booming now aside from HK and peoples quality of life has improved. You might want to travel to Dongbei and go have roasted/grilled/barbecue meats/salomon and go iceskatting and horseback ridding in the forrest. You might want to go Nei Mongu and see the beautiful plains on horseback and see the rodeo and wrestling/archery events. Both provinces are not congested with people. Just this ABC opinion but Singaporeans don't exactly identify with being Chinese, in fact some are pretty ashamed of it and want to be Brits.
This hatred that Cantonese have for Manchurians/Mongolians and the Qing Dynasty largely stems from the ordered execution of 11,000 Opium distributors of the Hong Tongs that collaborated with the British Opium traffickers which consequently hit their wallets.
Those HK RunRun Shaw ChopSockey movies 1960's-1970's were pretty prejudice against Manchurians and Mongolians!

Um, Heisui, learn to read what people are saying.

Read carefully:

I wrote: Mandarin evolved relatively recently -- someone posted an article suggesting that modern Mandarin is really an attempt of Manchurians trying to speak Beijingian dialect.

I did not say "Manchurian and Mongolian" evolved recently, or that they are the same as Mandarin. I know Manchurian and Mongolian had been around for a very long time, I was not implying that Manchurian did not have their own language. What I said was that MANDARIN (not Manchurian, not Mongolian) evolved recently, and that an article suggested that it was an attempt of Manchurian adopting Beijingian dialect. These are two different things. Before you put words into people's mouth, learn to read, seriously.

And all that other stuff about putting down Northerners -- that is completely irrelevant to anything I wrote. I didn't say ANYTHING about Northerners to begin with.

I merely asserted that Cantonese is a true Chinese dialect/sub-language (but did NOT say that other Chinese dialects/sub-languages, such as Mandarin, are not Chinese -- these are obviously Chinese, just like Cantonese is Chinese), and you went into this whole rant about HKese arrogance and putting down Northerners, as well as something about Singaporeans not being Cantonese -- WHAT? When have I said ANYTHING about these things? Have you heard of "non sequitor?" It means attacking a proposition that was not made by the person you address.

And it becomes OFFENSIVE when you accuse someone of saying things that person didn't say, and then call that person ignorant for saying these things. Learn to read, that's my advice for you, learn to REALLY read what people wrote.

Not every Southerner/HKese looks down on Northerners; a lot of them came from the North, even. I have relatives who are Manchurians. Instead of putting up a defense mechanism and exploding into a "don't hate on the North" rant, READ! Read what is REALLY being said. I've had it with people strawmanizing. (Strawmanizing means non sequitor. See above.)

[adoo]

....  Hong Kong since the early 1980's experienced a economic boom(became rich) and later real estate crash which has led HKongers to become arrogant in insulting and putting down their fellow Chinese  

that is just a baseless claim. it'd help your creditbility, if only you'd provide some details/ facts.

It is my opinion that people like you, who are unwilling to invest the time to learn the indigenous HK culture, to conveniently dismiss HKers's unique characteristics as being arrogant/brash/putting down others.

FYI HK's economic boom has spanned 6 decades, from 1940s to present. you need to inform yourself fully, which would prevent your from making such baseless claims.

In Hong Kong there is more bias against other fellow Chinese than in China itself. .

that is a convenient superficial generalization. HK is very much like New York city---very cosmopolitan; fully of hussle and bustle. People who are not used to such fast pace interpret the HKers and NewYorkers as being rude and arrogant.

From my personal experience, i'd much rather interacting w seemingly arrogant/brash HKers or NewYorkers than the Southerners in the US, who are always polite and cordial (superficially). w HKers/NYers, you know where they're coming from, with superficially polite and cordial Southerners in the US, you don't know

Those HK RunRun Shaw ChopSockey movies 1960's-1970's were pretty prejudice against Manchurians and Mongolians!

absent any corroborating facts, it is but another baseless claim.

...BTW there are Manchurians and Mongolians in Hong Kong and Guangdong for generations, Although it is keep private   because of the prejudice and bigotry....

I lived in HK for 3 years attending middle school in St Francis. I had classmates who were Manchurians. They didn't keep their ethnicity secret. A Tibetan, who didn't keep his ethnicity secret, worked for my uncle who owned a restaurant and tea shop on Nathan Road

Edited by adoo, 19 August 2005 - 04:25 PM.

[Heisui]

The HK economy from the 1940's -1970 was a fundamental income expenditure paradigm classic in it's marginal propensity to save and a tax haven for Brit firms increasing their autonomous spending. HKonger flaunt their wealth and they DO put down their fellow Chinese. Especially if their from China. I'm aware of what NYC is like. HK is in southern Asia, similar to Florida U.S. in its scorching heat and humidity BUT a great deal more crowded. The nite life isn't great but abundant in restaurants. If your on business and corporate AMEXED you will probably get taken to usual expat places. This A.B.C opinion.

that is just a baseless claim.  it'd help your creditbility, if only you'd provide some details/ facts.

It is my opinion that people like you, who are unwilling to invest the time to learn the indigenous HK culture, to conveniently dismiss HKers's unique characteristics as being arrogant/brash/putting down others.

FYI HK's economic boom has spanned 6 decades, from 1940s to present.  you need to inform yourself fully, which would prevent your from making such baseless claims.

that is a convenient superficial generalization.  HK is very much like New York city---very cosmopolitan; fully of hussle and bustle.  People who are not used to such fast pace interpret the HKers and NewYorkers as being rude and arrogant. 

From my personal experience, i'd much rather interacting w seemingly arrogant/brash HKers or NewYorkers than the Southerners in the US, who are always polite and cordial (superficially).  w HKers/NYers, you know where they're coming from, with superficially polite and cordial Southerners in the US, you don't know

absent any corroborating facts, it is but another baseless claim.I lived in HK for 3 years attending middle school in St Francis.  I had classmates who were Manchurians.  They didn't keep their ethnicity secret.  A Tibetan, who didn't keep his ethnicity secret, worked for my uncle who owned a restaurant and tea shop on Nathan Road

[Heisui]

No just don't appreciate you and other "innocent" posters who are patronizing and condescending!

Um, Heisui, learn to read what people are saying.

[Heisui]

BTW:
In Hong Kong the Wan Chai bars were okay nothing special. I prefered local food stalls they were more interesting than Lan Kwai Fong.

[MengTzu]

No just don't appreciate you and other "innocent" posters who are patronizing and condescending!

That's it. If you want to make accusations, bring your proofs. Name ONE thing I said that was patrionizing and condescending in this thread. Just ONE. I hate to make this bigger than it has to be, but since you keep bringing unjustified accusations, if you can't back up your claim, I believe you owe me an apology.

You can't use what other posters have said and assume that I agree with them. You have to find things that I have said.

Again, I never said that Cantonese is better than any Chinese dialect. All Chinese dialects are equally Chinese. I have not commented on Manchurian and Mongolian.

[adoo]

...HKonger flaunt their wealth and they DO put down their fellow Chinese.

once again, accusations without specifice details/facts only discredit you.

Many migrants from the mainland, at the outset, hold this view. but, once they adapt to the fast pace of life in HK, they blend in w the indigenous culture and thrive in HK.

then, there are people like you, who are unwilling or unable to adapt and could only whine about HK

The HK economy from the 1940's -1970 was a fundamental income expenditure paradigm classic in it's marginal propensity to save and a tax haven for Brit firms increasing their autonomous spending.

you have no idea what you're talking about.

HK has a flat-tax system for the past 60 years---it is the anti-thesis of a tax haven. It has been the most tax efficeint economy in the world. Nobel Prize Economist Milton Friedman often lauded HK, pre-1997, as the last bastion of true capitalism.

The Brits made tons of $$$, hand-over-fist, in HK and then take it home.

I'm aware of what NYC is like. HK is in southern Asia, similar to Florida U.S. in its scorching heat and humidity

it'd help it you had read my comparision w NYC carefully. the comparision was relative to the locals' attitude, and the fast pace of life.

HK's hot weather is not for everyone. those who are vibrant and love the sun like the HK weather.

Edited by adoo, 19 August 2005 - 06:37 PM.

[Heisui]

I agree to disagree. Yes Yes I'm sure your a very important person. Only your opinion is worthy.
Look up Autonomous spending. Yes HK has a flat tax. Look up Tax Haven. Yes Brits exploited HK and took it home. Yes Yes NYC is hustle and bustle.

once again, accusations without specifice details/facts only discredit you.

Many migrants from the mainland, at the outset, hold this view.  but, once they adapt to the fast pace of life in HK, they blend in w the indigenous culture and thrive in HK.

then, there are people like you, who are unwilling or unable to adapt and could only whine about HK you have no idea what you're talking about. 

HK has a flat-tax system for the past 60 years---it is the anti-thesis of a tax haven.  It has been the most tax efficeint economy in the world.  Nobel Prize Economist Milton Friedman often lauded HK, pre-1997, as the last bastion of true capitalism.

  The Brits made tons of $$$, hand-over-fist, in HK and then take it home.

it'd help it you had read my comparision w NYC carefully.  the comparision was relative to the locals' attitude, and the fast pace of life.

HK's hot weather is not for everyone.  those who are vibrant and love the sun like the HK weather. 

[Heisui]

I owe you NOTHING

That's it.  If you want to make accusations, bring your proofs.  Name ONE thing I said that was patrionizing and condescending in this thread.  Just ONE.  I hate to make this bigger than it has to be, but since you keep bringing unjustified accusations, if you can't back up your claim, I believe you owe me an apology.

You can't use what other posters have said and assume that I agree with them.  You have to find things that I have said.

Again, I never said that Cantonese is better than any Chinese dialect.  All Chinese dialects are equally Chinese.  I have not commented on Manchurian and Mongolian.

[Heisui]

The MS at full employment could not explain the A of I of HongKong given the Q was constant in HongKong. real estate crash and the Brits deliberately F#cked HongKong MS big time. real FX arbitrage poison strategy.

[MengTzu]

I owe you NOTHING

Heisui, why must you surround yourself with such defensiveness? I merely asked you to provide evidence that I said anything patronizing and condescending. If I did not say any such thing, then you have falsely accused me. Is your feeling about this so strong that you let it blind you to the point that unjustly accusing others for what they have not said is justifiable?

All I ask is ONE incident in this thread where I was patronizing and condescending. If you can't show me, you still owe me an apology for falsely accusing me.

This is particularly unsettling because I love my Northern brethren. I'm more than happy to call Manchurian and Mongolian Chinese my brothers and sisters (in fact, I have Manchurian relatives.) I don't look down on Northerners -- I have Northern friends who are more cultured than my HK friends -- and I said nothing in this thread that was insulting to them. And here you are, broadbrushing everything I said, PRESUMING that I was looking down on the North. All I said was that Cantonese, like other dialects, such as Mandarin, is a true Chinese dialect. Mandarin is younger than Cantonese, but this doesn't make it any less Chinese. You've accused me of hating people I love, that is one of the most offensive false accusations to bring against someone.

[Yun]

Heisui, your attitude sucks. I have just given you a 10% warning for quarrelling irrationally and putting words into other people's mouths just so you can vent some spleen.

Just this ABC opinion but Singaporeans don't exactly identify with being Chinese, in fact some are pretty ashamed of it and want to be Brits.

Please don't generalise. I am a Singaporean who is both very Chinese and very Singaporean in different contexts. There are Chinese Singaporeans who despise everything Chinese, but the trend of the times is moving against that kind of parochial and snobbish anglophile atttitude. And there are far more Chinese Singaporeans who feel Chinese than ABCs who feel Chinese.

I speak in a vaguely British accent (but not RP) because my father hates Singlish, and because it is good sense for a future academic to communicate well with all kinds of people. But I can switch to Singlish any time I want. Many better-educated Singaporeans who make the effort can do the same. It does not mean that I want to be a Brit.

The way I see it, when you are speaking or writing someone else's native language, it is a sign of respect to not speak it in a way that causes discomfort to him or her. That includes not mangling the pronunciation or the grammar. For the majority of Singaporeans who will hardly ever step out of the country, it's not an issue. But for Singaporeans like me it does matter. The same goes for the speaking of Mandarin/Putonghua - the standard at which most Singaporeans speak it just won't cut it internationally.

Mib, regarding an earlier comment by you: I think cockney actually is a dialect and not just an accent. There is lots of rhyming slang in cockney that is simply incoherent to non-cockneys.

[Heisui]

Too Bad. Get you AZZ back to Mohammed Rd.

Heisui, your attitude sucks. I have just given you a 10% warning for quarrelling irrationally and putting words into other people's mouths just so you can vent some spleen.
Please don't generalise. I am a Singaporean who is both very Chinese and very Singaporean in different contexts. There are Chinese Singaporeans who despise everything Chinese, but the trend of the times is moving against that kind of parochial and snobbish anglophile atttitude. And there are far more Chinese Singaporeans who feel Chinese than ABCs who feel Chinese.

I speak in a vaguely British accent (but not RP) because my father hates Singlish, and because it is good sense for a future academic to communicate well with all kinds of people. But I can switch to Singlish any time I want. Many better-educated Singaporeans who make the effort can do the same. It does not mean that I want to be a Brit.

The way I see it, when you are speaking or writing someone else's native language, it is a sign of respect to not speak it in a way that causes discomfort to him or her. That includes not mangling the pronunciation or the grammar. For the majority of Singaporeans who will hardly ever step out of the country, it's not an issue. But for Singaporeans like me it does matter. The same goes for the speaking of Mandarin/Putonghua - the standard at which most Singaporeans speak it just won't cut it internationally.

Mib, regarding an earlier comment by you: I think cockney actually is a dialect and not just an accent. There is lots of rhyming slang in cockney that is simply incoherent to non-cockneys.

Edited by Heisui, 19 August 2005 - 11:09 PM.

[Yun]

That will get you a 20% warning, which translates into suspension. Thanks for being so cooperative in your own punishment. MengTzu was nice enough to stand up for you against Kaixin, but you turned back and bit him. And I was patient enough to ask you to explain your theory about Li Yuan, and all you gave was c**p. So please take a long rest from CHF, until you can learn to turn on your brain before spitting out your bile.