127 replies to this topic

[ezquire]

Hm... But Cina Benteng is generally more than 3rd generation.
You mean, from generation to generation they don't have such document?

Some do. But seemingly more speaking dialects than Mandarin.
I feel that most Chinese not speaking Chinese is found in Java Island (on which lies the Capital of Indonesia).

Not very noticable? Seemingly just personal attitudes. [well, what I can see is that no Chinese is government official]

This is the reason why some Chinese in Indonesia called "Native Indonesians" "lazy lads", because of them preferring to be jealous rather than doing more work. (but for villagers, I don't think they would have such feeling because they can hardly meet Chinese.)

[note: there's no "ethnic Indonesian" because they have hundreds of ethnic identities ]

I'm not saying that I'm a Cina Benteng. From what I have heard, it is true that they span more than 3 generations. I mean that since I'm a third generation Chinese, I have been automatically granted Indonesian citizenship since my mom and my dad are already Indonesian citizen.
Mostly it is older people that is required to have that kind of paper.
Yes it's true that Indonesian Chinese that can speak Chinese are mostly from islands other than Java.
I'm from the island of Borneo where most Chinese speak either Teochew or Hakka. I myself speak Teochew although my vocabulary is limited to some extent. Though most Indonesian Chinese cannot speak Mandarin,
recently there has been a trend to learn Mandarin.
Those who can speak Mandarin, are usually older people. They learn Mandarin in Chinese schools that were closed in 1965/1966.
Indonesian Chinese don't call native indonesians lazy because they prefer to be jealous rather than working but rather because they ARE indeed lazy.

Edited by ezquire, 31 March 2006 - 05:05 AM.

[ezquire]

Younger generation Chinese-Indonesians under 30,do they speak Chinese language at all ?

What are present noticable discriminatory practices impose on ethnic Chinese,no Chinese language newspaper and schools ?

Yes, some of them do especially those from islands of Sumatra and Kalimantan (Borneo).
There are currently no noticeable discriminatory practices imposed on ethnic Chinese. But I believe that discriminatory practices still exist.
From 1966 to 1999 there were no Chinese language schools, Chinese language and traditions were banned (I remember when I was in the primary school (1993-1999) where we couldn't speak chinese otherwise we would be punished).

[ezquire]

Is there growing interest to learn Mandarin among young generation Indonesian-born ethnic Chinese ? There are Chinese language lesson VCD/DVD/CD available on commercial market,can you purchase the merchandise on internet or through local Chinese shops ?

Is there strong-willingness to learn or study Chinese among younger generation ? I know there are some Malaysia-born ethnic Chinese are studying in mainland China.

Apparently,nearly all of you can write fluent English,did you study English as primary language at school in Indonesia ?

Yes, there is a growing interest to learn Mandarin among young generation of Indonesian Chinese.

Yes there are Chinese language lesson VCD/DVD/CD available on commercial market.
However imported Chinese books is quite hard to find especially in my hometown, Pontianak.

Yes there are some Indonesian Chinese that study Mandarin overseas, notably in Mainland China.

No, English is not studied as a primary language at schools in Indonesia with the exception of international school or the so-called 'national plus school'. The 'national plus school' is a kind of private school that charge much higher school than the average public school or private school. There has been a trend among this kind of school to teach English and Mandarin, although I don't know to what extent since I have never studied in this kind of school.
In most schools in Indonesia, whether private or public schools, Indonesian is the primary language taught.
English is taught as a second language and it is to my belief that the teaching of English is largely unsuccessful in most parts of Indonesia especially in public schools.
In private schools in Chinese populated areas, such as my hometown, Mandarin is taught as a extra-curricular lesson. In my previous school, there is even one teacher that comes from PRC.
What makes no sense is, while almost all Mandarin teachers(excluding the one from PRC) and students can speak Teochew, Mandarin is taught with Indonesian as the medium language. It is to my belief that Teochew
is a lot better as a medium language to learn Mandarin due to their common heritage.

In my hometown, Pontianak (better known as Khuntien in the Teochew dialect and also called Khuntien by Hakkas although differs in pronounciation from the Teochew's) actually has an ethnic Chinese majority.
Although Chinese population is only around 30%, Chinese is the LARGEST single ethnic group.
(this figure is taken from http://www.pontianak.go.id/sosbud.html which is the official website of the city of Pontianak written in Indonesian)
It is also to my belief that most Chinese reside downtown therefore the urban population of Pontianak has a much higher Chinese population percentage. Most natives reside in the outer parts of the city.
Oddly, no Chinese has ever become the mayor of this overwhelmingly Chinese city. If it is not called a discriminatiory practice toward its Chinese resident, I don't what else it will be called.

Edited by ezquire, 01 April 2006 - 01:56 AM.

[ezquire]

Is there ever a grass-roots movement to push extreme wealthy ethnic Chinese to fund education scholarships to some bright Indonesia-born ethnic Chinese to study overseas ?

I've read there are quite a few of them have residency in Hong Kong plus elsewhere for short stay in time of crisis in Indonesia.

Does PRC presently have an " open door policy " design for SE Asia-born ethnic Chinese to study in mainland China through government funding ? I recall,Taiwan did an excellent recruiting young bright ethnic Chinese to study at various colleges in the 1960's-1980's.

Dunno. Never heard of it. If I could I would want to get one though language might be a problem since I technically can't speak Mandarin (My Mandarin is severely limited) nor write in Chinese.

Edited by ezquire, 01 April 2006 - 04:05 AM.

[qrasy]

I'm not saying that I'm a Cina Benteng.

Neither do I.

Indonesian Chinese don't call native indonesians lazy because they prefer to be jealous rather than working but rather because they ARE indeed lazy.

Well, indirect speech: using "prefer X than work" to mean "lazy and just X"

No, English is not studied as a primary language at schools in Indonesia with the exception of international school or the so-called 'national plus school'. The 'national plus school' is a kind of private school that charge much higher school than the average public school or private school.

Exactly.

English is taught as a second language and it is to my belief that the teaching of English is largely unsuccessful in most parts of Indonesia especially in public schools.

Due to quality of teachers...

What makes no sense is, while almost all Mandarin teachers(excluding the one from PRC) and students can speak Teochew, Mandarin is taught with Indonesian as the medium language. It is to my belief that Teochew is a lot better as a medium language to learn Mandarin due to their common heritage.

Mandarin is selected because of there are not only Teochew Chinese in there... And also because there is standardized Chinese in Mandarin...

In my hometown, Pontianak (better known as Khuntien in the Teochew dialect and also called Khuntien by Hakkas although differs in pronounciation from the Teochew's) actually has an ethnic Chinese majority.

Also (almost) the same reading in Mandarin.. "坤甸".

Oddly, no Chinese has ever become the mayor of this overwhelmingly Chinese city. If it is not called a discriminatiory practice toward its Chinese resident, I don't what else it will be called.

As I said, I've never seen Chinese as government official in Indonesia. And I wonder who wants? After those things happen.

www.yesasia.com has many reasonably priced ( base on US living standard ) Chinese books of all subjects plus all sorts of Chinese-language merchandise might interest to some of you.

US living standard is very expensive in Indonesia.

Is there ever a grass-roots movement within Chinese community push the extreme wealthy ethnic Chinese to fund education scholarships for some bright Indonesia-born ethnic Chinese to study overseas ?

IMO they push themselves to get some face among the community.

I've read there are quite a few of them have residency in Hong Kong plus elsewhere for short stay in time of crisis in Indonesia.

Anywhere outside Indonesia is OK during the chaos.

It seems to me,ethnic Chinese in Indonesia is DIS-FRANCHISED unlike Malaysia-born ethnic Chinese are somewhat united to confront some social injustices as a community.

Total population of Chinese in Malaysia is very large, 33% of total. (Malaysia only have 50% Malay population)
Compare to Indonesia: a few million among 200+ millions.

Edited by qrasy, 01 April 2006 - 04:45 AM.

[ezquire]

Mandarin is selected because of there are not only Teochew Chinese in there... And also because there is standardized Chinese in Mandarin...

US living standard is very expensive in Indonesia.

No offense but you probably misunderstood what I meant. I'm not a native speaker of English so it is highly probable that I use the wrong selection of words and the wrong grammar. I am also a little confused how to explain it. What I meant was since most if not almost all Chinese in Khuntien are able to speak Teochew, Mandarin lessons should be directed in Teochew rather than in Indonesian. Mandarin words that will be learned should be translated into Teochew rather than Indonesian. This will make the learning easier because some words in Mandarin and Teochew are rather similar. The grammar is also very similar (For instance we would say 'rich man' in Teochew and Mandarin, while Indonesians would say 'man rich (orang kaya)'


True. US living standard is very expensive in Indonesia esp in provincial towns such as Khuntien. Many of my friends can't even afford an university education in the capital.

[qrasy]

Yeah, I read it too quickly so I misunderstood
But: if Teochew are used as Medium then how about non-Teochews?

As a comparison, my instructor of "Structure of Chinese language" here choose neither Mandarin nor Cantonese for the medium; English is used instead.

[ezquire]

Yeah, I read it too quickly so I misunderstood
But: if Teochew are used as Medium then how about non-Teochews?

As a comparison, my instructor of "Structure of Chinese language" here choose neither Mandarin nor Cantonese for the medium; English is used instead.

Well, as I have stated before, most if not all non-Teochews in Pontianak can speak Teochew.
Teochew is the lingua franca of Khuntien just as Hokkian is the lingua franca of Medan(among its Chinese resident).
From my personal experience, Chinese in Khuntien is quite assimilated to each other. I can't tell who's Hakka, who's Teochew because most Hakkas prefer to speak in Teochew (Many of my friends do this).
Apart from Hakka, I have never encounter another Chinese dialect except Cantonese in Khuntien. There is just 1 Cantonese-speaking friend of mine. He can also speak Hakka and Teochew.
So, I believe at least 90% or perhaps more can at least understand Teochew.

Also, in pre-1966 Chinese schools in Khuntien, Teochew WAS actually used as a medium language to learn Mandarin. I do know about this because my father and some of my older uncles attended the Chinese school. Khuntien's Chinese is rather different from those from Java where most if not all cannot even speak any Chinese ( I am currently studying in the capital and have met some Chinese from Java esp Central and East Java).

Aside from making the learning easier, I believe that Teochew MUST be used as a medium language.
I have several reasons to support my opinion.
1. Many if not all younger Chinese in Khuntien(including me) have a shallow vocabulary.
2. Sometimes but rather rarely our grammar is mixed up with Indonesia.
3. Some wealthier Chinese (I don't know the exact figure), usually upper middle class Chinese no longer teach Teochew to their kids.

If we use Teochew as a medium language, we can learn more Teochew words, thus enlarging our vocabulary. Our grammar will be corrected. I believe that Teochew is undergoing an extinction process in Khuntien. If more and more parents no longer teach their children to speak Teochew and less vocabulary is
retained, Khuntien will be soon a Indonesian-speaking city. That's too horrible for me to bear as I grew up in a Teochew-speaking community

Btw, Indonesian is the easiest language to learn and is the most useless of all. I hope I don't end up speaking Indonesian all the time. Chinese (don't really care if it's Teochew or if it's Mandarin) should be the official language of Khuntien. We are a majority in Khuntien and Singkawang (This town has an even higher percentage of Chinese, close to 50% or perhaps more though most are Hakkas not Teochews).

Khuntien has become a Malay city for far too long. It no longer deserve to be one under whatever pretext.
It has to become a Chinese city.
No Chinese history of the city is recognized by the goverment just as the goverment don't recognize that the kings of Javanese kingdom of Demak were Chinese.

Edited by ezquire, 01 April 2006 - 09:02 PM.

[ezquire]

My question for ezquire and grassy,is there a possibility or desire for Indonesia-born ethnic Chinese ( community ) to re-establish much greater Chinese cultural contacts with mainland China/Taiwan/HK/Macau plus Singapore and nearby South Pacific countries in the region.

Is there present activicism among younger generation push toward regaining Chinese identity through privately practice of Chinese cultural aspects.

I don't think that there's a possibility for that. Indonesian goverment is very xenophobic and it certainly doesn't want its ethnic Chinese resident to maintain close contacts with Chinese overseas. Instead they seek to assimilate us thoroughly and to alienate us.

Mmmm................. dunno how to answer that. But in my hometown, but we still practice ancestral worship, 'kue cua' (dunno what it is in proper Mandarin or English) though we don't know what they mean and what they are for. But mostly, most part of our culture is either Indonesian or Western. Sorry if this doesn't answer your question but I cannot grasp what you mean by private practice of Chinese cultural aspects.

[ezquire]

This local Chinese-oriented bank,United Commerical Bank ( stock symbol UCBH ) here in northern California is partly founded by a super-wealthy HK-based Indonesia-born ethnic Chinese.

Actually many Indonesian banks are founded by Indonesian Chinese. But most didn't survive the 1997 economic crisis and some of the largest were taken over by Indonesian goverment. Most didn't target Chinese specifically but rather they are national-based banks.

The University of Trisakti is originally a university founded for Indonesian Chinese but in recent years, many if not most of it students are rich native Indonesians (Who said Indonesian Chinese is rich??? It's those native Indonesians that are rich).

[qrasy]

Well, as I have stated before, most if not all non-Teochews in Pontianak can speak Teochew.
Teochew is the lingua franca of Khuntien just as Hokkian is the lingua franca of Medan(among its Chinese resident).

Then you can do that

2. Sometimes but rather rarely our grammar is mixed up with Indonesia.

It's annoying when I hear "yang", "dong" "sih", "kek", etc.: the "useless" particles of colloquial Indonesian.

3. Some wealthier Chinese (I don't know the exact figure), usually upper middle class Chinese no longer teach Teochew to their kids.

What's the reason? They want their kids to speak English all the time??

If we use Teochew as a medium language, we can learn more Teochew words, thus enlarging our vocabulary.

LOL but isn't it on Teochew language lesson not Mandarin?

Btw, Indonesian is the easiest language to learn and is the most useless of all.

Err... how do you know? I think Hawaiian is easier (but I don't evn try to learn it) and less useful .

No Chinese history of the city is recognized by the goverment just as the goverment don't recognize that the kings of Javanese kingdom of Demak were Chinese.

"Cina Benteng"?

My question for ezquire and grassy,is there a possibility or desire for Indonesia-born ethnic Chinese ( community ) to re-establish much greater Chinese cultural contacts with mainland China/Taiwan/HK/Macau plus Singapore and nearby South Pacific countries in the region.

Desire: perhaps. I found that many Indonesia-born Chinese go to Singapore.

(Who said Indonesian Chinese is rich??? It's those native Indonesians that are rich).

Well, keep in mind that we have large rural population in Indonesia.

[ezquire]

It's good Singapore can make room for Indonesia-born ethnic Chinese,any wanting to relocate to malaysia as a possible second choice ?

I would love to move to Singapore or Malaysia. From what I have heard, to become a Singaporean PR, you have to either rich or able to find a job in Singapore with good salaries.
Most of us simply cannot move elsewhere cos nobody wants us to move in. If I can move to either Malaysia or Singapore I would not stay here anymore.

[ezquire]

What's the reason? They want their kids to speak English all the time??

Actually they teach the 'useless' Indonesian to their kids. Dunno the exact reason for that but I believe some of them probably consider 'backward' Indonesian modern. Some if not most of them do send their kids to some Mandarin lessons. But, what can be expected from the teachings of Mandarin in Indonesia (look at English for example coupled with the fact that there is no significant Native speaker of Mandarin in Indonesia)??
Dunno about that myself.

LOL but isn't it on Teochew language lesson not Mandarin?

This is based on my personal experience. My father used to teach me Mandarin with Teochew as a medium language. When introducing new words, he tried to find the equivalent in Teochew. If I was not very familiar with the Teochew word, he would explain the concept in Teochew or sometimes in Teochew mixed with Indonesian (Actually our Teochew is somewhat mixed with Indonesian). That way I can learn new Teochew words that is otherwise not used in our daily conversation ( I have only recently known that 'tan si' in Teochew or 'dan shi' in Mandarin is 'but' in English. We usually use the Indonesian 'tapi' in conversation).

Err... how do you know? I think Hawaiian is easier (but I don't evn try to learn it) and less useful .

Well, maybe I'm a bit subjective. But Indonesian doesn't have tones, spelling is relatively easy. My father mastered it rather quickly. He barely knew any Indonesian before 1966 but mastered it in no time. Compare this to an Indonesian who try to learn Chinese or English.
Although actually the tribal language of native Indonesians is easier to learn. Their vocabularies probably don't exceed 1000 words. Not very sure about the quantity.

"Cina Benteng"?

no. I have seen this issue somewhere in this site and some other site (forget where though). They are Hui.
One of them surnamed Tan(Chen). The kingdom is already established way before Cina benteng exist.
However, I was taught in a very different manner in Indonesian history. Probably 99,9% Indonesian don't know about this.
The goverment is very good in indoctrinating and brainwashing its citizen.

Edited by ezquire, 02 April 2006 - 11:08 AM.

[ezquire]

America presently in dire need and foresee continue NEED TO RECRUIT qualified medical professionals from overseas,specifically nurses and lab technicians.

Many of you have fairly good English comprehension and of young age,this route might be of use for those have strong desire to leave Indonesia.

Really?? I didn't know about that.
Can you recommend me some website that provide or advertise these kinds of jobs (Forums maybe....).
I will be very grateful.
What about jobs in other fields such as Computer Science?

Edited by ezquire, 03 April 2006 - 02:12 AM.

[qrasy]

Actually they teach the 'useless' Indonesian to their kids. Dunno the exact reason for that but I believe some of them probably consider 'backward' Indonesian modern.

I'm thinking of that they speak Indonesian to each other in family. That could happen if they are "mixed". My parents use Mandarin to communicate, as a result I can't speak their dialects.

But one of my (native Indonesian) friend can't speak his parents' (same) dialect . Perhaps because of rarity of the speakers around (his parents just moved to the capital city, I guess).

Since Indonesia is not as economically developed as Singapore and Malaysia,I can imagine employment opportunities very slim except in the capital city of Jakarta

and a few other big cities. (but to my impression Chinese population in Indonesia are focused on big cities).

Edited by qrasy, 04 April 2006 - 06:12 PM.