127 replies to this topic

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

Why Chinese don't leave that land of tragedy. It's dangerous!

Because the Chinese have every right to be there, they must stay strong and stand up against the oppression.

The ethnic Chinese needs an ALAMO to get China involve militarily.

China kept its citizens from getting involved because they know that is will create a big catastrophy not only to Indonesia but to muslims in general. None Muslim Chinese in China might take their anger at the Muslim-Chinese.

No doubt, China can easily take over Indonesia or Malaysia militarily if they wanted to but China is not like that they prefer soft diplomacy.

Imagine if China have the same policy as the USA, UK, France or Australia. Probably Chinese commandos or marines would have been send to Indonesia with or without the Indonesian government consent.

[mariusj]

Because the Chinese have every right to be there, they must stay strong and stand up against the oppression.

The ethnic Chinese needs an ALAMO to get China involve militarily.

China kept its citizens from getting involved because they know that is will create a big catastrophy not only to Indonesia but to muslims in general. None Muslim Chinese in China might take their anger at the Muslim-Chinese.

No doubt, China can easily take over Indonesia or Malaysia militarily if they wanted to but China is not like that they prefer soft diplomacy.

Imagine if China have the same policy as the USA, UK, France or Australia. Probably Chinese commandos or marines would have been send to Indonesia with or without the Indonesian government consent.

It is never going to happen.

If people start to kill Americans/British/French/Australians now days, at most they will shoot a few missiles. But if they are killing American decent/British decent/French decent/etc etc, I don't think any of these government will do a fig aside from 'stating our grave concern over XXXXX'

China have its own handful of Muslim problems. I don't think avoidance is on their top priority.

And Alamo, in historical sense, is a utter disgrace to American democracy; it is a clear sign of Imperialism. [One of the few which America did in history that could be consider as an Imperialistic.]

And China simply does not have the power to keep their supply line that would sustain a quantity that would need to pacify these nations.

[1980]

There's plenty of poor/ lower middle Chinese ethnic in Indonesia and SE Asia...

[tangren]

While the Chinese are an economically dominant minority in Indonesia controlling something like 80% of Indonesia's wealth (just before the riots of 98); and to a lesser extent in the Phillipines and lesser yet in Malaysia - the crude statistic does not tell the story of the many poor and middle class Chinese.

The corrupt Suharto regime had many rich billionaire Chinese cronies. In the same way crude statistics about the share of Chinese wealth in Malaysia that Mahathir always likes to talk about doesn't tell how much of it is actually in the hands of the Chinese elite and not the average Chinese. The problem of the 'greedy Chinese' should really be a more general problem of crony capitalism instead of focusing on one ethnic group.

[sg_han]

The problem of the 'greedy Chinese' should really be a more general problem of crony capitalism instead of focusing on one ethnic group.

I agree. Together with the problem of "greedy malays" and "lazy malays" , these are the problems that need to be tackled. The rural Malays and those Malays most in need of help are getting little support.

[tangren]

I agree. Together with the problem of "greedy malays" and "lazy malays" , these are the problems that need to be tackled. The rural Malays and those Malays most in need of help are getting little support.

Malays/Indons are no more lazy or greedy than the Chinese are. There are quite a few economically successful minorities in many parts of the world other than the Chinese.
And as I said, the crude statistics obscure the fact that a few crony capitalists are getting a lions share of the wealth. S.E.Asia has exactly zero private TNC in the global top 500 but has many of the worlds richest tycoons - the corollary being that those tycoons are good at maintaining monopolies by patronage and corruption instead of running world class cutting edge companies.

[Johan]

I dont how many Indonesian born Chinese will agree with me. Chinese issue in Indonesian society is a complex one.

One has to accept the unfortunate facts that occured in the past

1. racial stereotypes
2. Legalized or unwarranted massacre of Chinese populace from the Dutch Period till recent 1998 riots
3. All sorts of unwaranted regulations to restrict social life of the Chinese
4. Even glass ceilings for Chinese in the Goverment services and Armed forces.

We can blame even the natives for being one heck a**h***s!!! for all sufferings and indignity that had been imposed on us.
Not to mention " turn coat" individual , Indonesian Chinese muslim ( cant mention name here) that proposed public in his book that all Indonesian Chinese should embrace the religion of majority, IN ORDER TO BE ACCEPTED.

Whether rich Chinese or poor Chinese in Indonesia should realized that our struggle is to be recognized with dignity. Perhaps the most toughest of all that we are willing to fight not only with just arms but brains as well.

For example : maybe we should learn from The Japanese American community who were being interned and discriminated at during the world war two. They changed their society after the war by being more involved in politics, social work, and in all aspect of American way of life to bring down US government to finally apologized for their unjust treatment during the world two.
The Japanese Americans has been lobbying for 40 years or more to make Japanese American regained their dignity for 40 years.
Maybe we Indonesian Chinese should follow their example perhaps harder because the Indonesian government is far from being the enlightened despite its democracy trappings!!! We must put more Indonesian Chinese to study law not just lawyers but law makers too and make more brilliant scientist and technocrats.
Perhaps our struggle may have to fight longer than just 40 years!!!

I have a dream that one day we must rise in the Indonesian society and they recognized us not as " milking cows" but as contributing members of the society.

Despite the openess after the reformation towards the Chinese culture and social life, there are still too many hurdles and invisible barriers which we may or may not aware. We can not allow our children in the future TO BE JUST SATISFIED WITH OPENESS & PLAIN VANILLA RACIAL TOLERANCE. We must try again control our destiny and not allow ourselves to be satisfied watching our future generation looking at street performance lion dances!!!

Also in our Indonesian Chinese culture , there should be a reform on how Indonesian Chinese should be represented.
This is the toughest, because it is all involved language that is Mandarin. I can hardly speak mandarin, thats why I always pressurized my children to be able to speak the mother tongue.
The ability to speak Mandarin and revival of the language will bring a significant change in the way Indonesian Chinese present their culture. Too many natives see Chinese culture in single dimension and very narrow view of Chinese New Year, Lion dances and temple celebration, there are more to that !!!

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

I dont how many Indonesian born Chinese will agree with me. Chinese issue in Indonesian society is a complex one.

One has to accept the unfortunate facts that occured in the past

1. racial stereotypes
2. Legalized or unwarranted massacre of Chinese populace from the Dutch Period till recent 1998 riots
3. All sorts of unwaranted regulations to restrict social life of the Chinese
4. Even glass ceilings for Chinese in the Goverment services and Armed forces.

We can blame even the natives for being one heck a**h***s!!! for all sufferings and indignity that had been imposed on us.
Not to mention " turn coat" individual , Indonesian Chinese muslim ( cant mention name here) that proposed public in his book that all Indonesian Chinese should embrace the religion of majority, IN ORDER TO BE ACCEPTED.

Whether rich Chinese or poor Chinese in Indonesia should realized that our struggle is to be recognized with dignity. Perhaps the most toughest of all that we are willing to fight not only with just arms but brains as well.

For example : maybe we should learn from The Japanese American community who were being interned and discriminated at during the world war two. They changed their society after the war by being more involved in politics, social work, and in all aspect of American way of life to bring down US government to finally apologized for their unjust treatment during the world two.
The Japanese Americans has been lobbying for 40 years or more to make Japanese American regained their dignity for 40 years.
Maybe we Indonesian Chinese should follow their example perhaps harder because the Indonesian government is far from being the enlightened despite its democracy trappings!!! We must put more Indonesian Chinese to study law not just lawyers but law makers too and make more brilliant scientist and technocrats.
Perhaps our struggle may have to fight longer than just 40 years!!!

I have a dream that one day we must rise in the Indonesian society and they recognized us not as " milking cows" but as contributing members of the society.

Despite the openess after the reformation towards the Chinese culture and social life, there are still too many hurdles and invisible barriers which we may or may not aware. We can not allow our children in the future TO BE JUST SATISFIED WITH OPENESS & PLAIN VANILLA RACIAL TOLERANCE. We must try again control our destiny and not allow ourselves to be satisfied watching our future generation looking at street performance lion dances!!!

Also in our Indonesian Chinese culture , there should be a reform on how Indonesian Chinese should be represented.
This is the toughest, because it is all involved language that is Mandarin. I can hardly speak mandarin, thats why I always pressurized my children to be able to speak the mother tongue.
The ability to speak Mandarin and revival of the language will bring a significant change in the way Indonesian Chinese present their culture. Too many natives see Chinese culture in single dimension and very narrow view of Chinese New Year, Lion dances and temple celebration, there are more to that !!!

IMO, that is the main problem it is not about multi-culturalism or respect for ethnicity, it is another form of ethnic cleansing. One have to give up their heritage and tradition and must be muslim before they can be consider to be Indonesian? why, is a catholic, Bhuddist, Hindu, Jew or Atheist less human than muslim?

Same thing is happening in the Philippine with the Muslim seccession problem. The rebels wanted to seperate from the Philippines in order to establish an Islamic State this will translate into "only muslim" will be consider.

I can understand if the rebellion is about social injustice, about fighting for all citizens regardless of religion but it is not.

Just like the Philippines, if Indonesia in fact Malaysia as well must seriously consider if they want religion to dictate their nation's policy or not?

If muslim countries have laws that require all people to be muslim before they can be consider citizens to enjoy all protection of the land, should Christian countries be allowed to do the same?

It will become a very scary thing if this happens, we will see the world revert back to the days of the mohamedans vs. crusades

[李正龍]

IMO, that is the main problem it is not about multi-culturalism or respect for ethnicity, it is another form of ethnic cleansing. One have to give up their heritage and tradition and must be muslim before they can be consider to be Indonesian? why, is a catholic, Bhuddist, Hindu, Jew or Atheist less human than muslim?

Same thing is happening in the Philippine with the Muslim seccession problem. The rebels wanted to seperate from the Philippines in order to establish an Islamic State this will translate into "only muslim" will be consider.

I can understand if the rebellion is about social injustice, about fighting for all citizens regardless of religion but it is not.

Just like the Philippines, if Indonesia in fact Malaysia as well must seriously consider if they want religion to dictate their nation's policy or not?

If muslim countries have laws that require all people to be muslim before they can be consider citizens to enjoy all protection of the land, should Christian countries be allowed to do the same?

It will become a very scary thing if this happens, we will see the world revert back to the days of the mohamedans vs. crusades

no no no..
it seemed to be like that..
but the true motive was jealousy upon economic welfare of Chinese Indonesian..
and the "lord of hatred", who become the director of that deathly scene used those religious jargons as the mask..

religious jargons were:
"those Chinese eats pork"..
"those Chinese hails stone"..

and the real jargon eventually were:
"those Chinese are rich"..
"those Chinese tooks over all of our money"..
"those Chinese are slippery (for business matter)"..
"those Chinese makes us poor"..
etc..

i'm one of Chinese Indonesia..
and i'm not Moslem..

Edited by 李正龍, 24 July 2008 - 01:04 PM.

[Wan Ren aka Danny]

no no no..
it seemed to be like that..
but the true motive was jealousy upon economic welfare of Chinese Indonesian..
and the "lord of hatred", who become the director of that deathly scene used those religious jargons as the mask..

religious jargons were:
"those Chinese eats pork"..
"those Chinese hails stone"..

and the real jargon eventually were:
"those Chinese are rich"..
"those Chinese tooks over all of our money"..
"those Chinese are slippery (for business matter)"..
"those Chinese makes us poor"..
etc..

i'm one of Chinese Indonesia..
and i'm not Moslem..

But if those Chinese and you convert to Islam then all is well and legal, right?

Edited by Wan Ren aka Danny, 24 July 2008 - 09:22 PM.

[李正龍]

But if those Chinese and you convert to Islam then all is well and legal, right?

a bad experiment it'll be.. LoL

no, it'll be unwell if Indonesian Chinese (whether moslem or not) still capable to control the economical role dominantly..

[Peace]

As a third generation Chinese Indonesian, I also want to share my experience. My grandparents came from Zhejiang province. I think Chinese Indonesian fate is really sad. We as Chinese Indonesian really are "different" from Native Indonesian. No matter what, they (native) won't fully accept us. It just sad that even though we help native Indonesian build Indonesia, they still won't acknowledge our rights as citizen. And what most humiliating, we were forced to forget our identity as Chinese descent and yet they still call us Chinese and discriminate against us.

I hope since now China keep growing, Indonesian native and government would treat Chinese Indonesian better. To be honest if I have much money, I prefer to get out from Indonesia (it's not like we are poor, just upper middle class family)

[李正龍]

Some new facts I've found lately, this racial issue was used by the regime to distract public from what they were committing.
People was driven to put hatred upon several things that Chinese-Indonesian had, econominal influences, even political influence.

Same case with that racial issue, now, they're using the NII (Negara Islam Indonesia) to raise the blurs.

[Bojep]

I hope since now China keep growing, Indonesian native and government would treat Chinese Indonesian better. To be honest if I have much money, I prefer to get out from Indonesia (it's not like we are poor, just upper middle class family)

good for you. too bad i'm the poor one.

[X `]

As a third generation Chinese Indonesian, I also want to share my experience. My grandparents came from Zhejiang province. I think Chinese Indonesian fate is really sad. We as Chinese Indonesian really are "different" from Native Indonesian. No matter what, they (native) won't fully accept us. It just sad that even though we help native Indonesian build Indonesia, they still won't acknowledge our rights as citizen. And what most humiliating, we were forced to forget our identity as Chinese descent and yet they still call us Chinese and discriminate against us.

I hope since now China keep growing, Indonesian native and government would treat Chinese Indonesian better. To be honest if I have much money, I prefer to get out from Indonesia (it's not like we are poor, just upper middle class family)

Relocate to China.