32 replies to this topic

[shawn]

What about thearmy of Dali? How was it being organised?

[Genghis_Khan]

yea..
how about their weapons and army costume...
any photos ?

[Snafu]

yea..
how about their weapons and army costume...
any photos ?

On the first page of this thread there's a pic I posted of Dali officials and soldiers from the 12th century. The soldiers are on the far right.

[shawn]

Yah, but how was the army of Dali being organised? Eg - 10 men with 3archers, 3 infantry and 4 cavalry. Did it have any units with firearms? or with heavy artillery?

[galvatron prime]

i have a question ,why western xia are called dynasty and dali are not,are dali is sung colony or vassal states ,dali and western xia are almost the same size ,some map show dali are bigger ,anyways why dali are always sided with sung ,thank you .

[Toluy]

Dali, Xi Xia and Song are all independent states. Perhaps because of the concept of 'Han' culture influence both Song and Dali as a common acceptance.

[Rong Qin Wang]

i have a question ,why western xia are called dynasty and dali are not,are dali is sung colony or vassal states ,dali and western xia are almost the same size ,some map show dali are bigger ,anyways why dali are always sided with sung ,thank you .

Zunjing de Galvatron Xian Sheng,

Hmm, you have asked a very good question that I have also been wondering myself. I have not read anything from any books regarding this topic. However, I have enough information about Dali and XiXia to speculate.

The rulers and people of XiXia Dynasty were considered as foreigners by the Chinese for numerous reasons; the primary one being that people from XiXia Dynasty were of a completely separate ethnic group with a different language and culture. Also, XiXia harbored a great ambition of conquering China. I believe the Chinese would refer to any alien states with their own kings/kingdoms as a dynasty. Being foreigners, referring to other alien states as a dynasty would not really violate the concept of “Mandate of Heaven.” Besides, the definition of a dynasty is a series of rulers from the same family.

However, the Dali kingdom was definitely a different case. The Dali kingdom was founded by the Bai people, which is one of the 56 official ethnic groups of China. I don’t believe the Dali kingdom was a vassal state to the Song Dynasty since it was independent; however, the Song Dynasty remained greatly respected by the Dali kingdom due to cultural similarities. The geographical location of Dali kingdom was still inside of China. According to tradition, there can never be two kingdoms holding the “Mandate of Heaven.” While the “Mandate of Heaven” belonged to the Song Dynasty, the Dali kingdom was merely a vassal state that Song Dynasty had granted its independence.

In order for Dali kingdom to be considered as a dynasty, it must have conquered and ruled all of China at some point or another, which of course, never happened. Being a foreign kingdom, the same regulations could not apply to the XiXia Dynasty.

Well, this is just my educated guess based on some of the readings that I have done. I have no proof of anything as this is just my speculations, so please don’t hold me accountable for the accuracy of my argument. Of course, I am always ready to be enlightened by other members!

Xie Xie,

[Yihui]

One thing I never quite heard about was about the kingdom of Dali. History books generally mention the Khitan Liao, the Jurchen Jin, and the Tanjut Xi-Xia, but I've never heard too much about Dali. Was Dali a kingdom with its own unique ethnic group and language, a kingdom with a Sinified culture like Korea or Vietnam, or was it merely just an independence Han Chinese polity?

[Yun]

I've just merged three threads all dealing with Dali.

Dali was, to all intents and purposes, a dynastic kingdom. The reason why it is not counted as an independent dynasty in Chinese history is because unlike the Xia kings who called themselves emperors (huangdi) from 1038 onwards, Dali kings were content with the title of king (wang), and thus did not present a challenge to the Song ideology that there can only be one emperor in the world. Thus Dali was regarded as a vassal kingdom by the Song court, rather than a rival and competitor like Liao or Xia.

Also, unlike Nanzhao which waged several wars with the Tang dynasty after its rebellion against Tang suzerainty in 751, Dali never undertook any aggression towards the Song. Neither did the Song dynasty ever try to conquer Dali.

[Yun]

Was Dali a kingdom with its own unique ethnic group and language, a kingdom with a Sinified culture like Korea or Vietnam, or was it merely just an independence Han Chinese polity?

The Duan family that ruled Dali is believed to have been descended from 'Han' immigrants, but the Dali ruling elite was identified as being of the Bai or Bai Man ethnicity. Duan Yuming, author of "A History of the Dali Kingdom" (published in Chinese, 2003), describes the Bai as a composite ethnic grouping made up of earlier Yunnan peoples like the Bo, Sou, and Kunming, as well as 'Han' immigrants like the Duan. The other major ethnic grouping in Yunnan, the Wu Man, produced the rulers of the earlier Nanzhao kingdom.

According to a Yuan-dynasty traveller who wrote an account of his trip to Dali, the Dali kingdom actively modeled its architecture, language, literature, mathematics, clothing, customs, and military equipment and tactics on the Song dynasty. Other sources confirm that the official written script was Chinese ('Han') characters, although numerous variant characters were used. Similarly, the standard spoken language of the elite was Chinese ('Han'), but with an accent and local variations in vocabulary.

[Rong Qin Wang]

The Duan family that ruled Dali is believed to have been descended from 'Han' immigrants, but the Dali ruling elite was identified as being of the Bai or Bai Man ethnicity. Duan Yuming, author of "A History of the Dali Kingdom" (published in Chinese, 2003), describes the Bai as a composite ethnic grouping made up of earlier Yunnan peoples like the Bo, Sou, and Kunming, as well as 'Han' immigrants like the Duan. The other major ethnic grouping in Yunnan, the Wu Man, produced the rulers of the earlier Nanzhao kingdom.

According to a Yuan-dynasty traveller who wrote an account of his trip to Dali, the Dali kingdom actively modeled its architecture, language, literature, mathematics, clothing, customs, and military equipment and tactics on the Song dynasty. Other sources confirm that the official written script was Chinese ('Han') characters, although numerous variant characters were used. Similarly, the standard spoken language of the elite was Chinese ('Han'), but with an accent and local variations in vocabulary.

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

First of all, thank you very much for merging three similar threads together as that will make it much easier for members to find the answer(s).

Yeah, I have always knew that Dali was definitely its own dynastic kingdom, but thank you for confirming that the Song Dynasty did not feel threatened by Dali according to the “Mandate of Heaven” theory. I surmise the kingdom of Dali and the Song Dynasty lived in harmony with each other.

By the way, did the Dali Kings really bore the title of “Wang?” I remember reading Jin Yong’s novel “Tian Long Ba Bu,” where it referred to Duan Yu’s uncle as Bao Ding Di. Is that just a made-up title or a mistake in the novel? Or was “Di” translated as “Wang?”

Xie Xie,

[vfrancis]

Went on a trip to Yunnas early this year and went to Dali,
Fscinating place and the Bai people are some of the friendliest you could ever meet

[Kenshinng]

Zunjing de Yun the Sage-King,

First of all, thank you very much for merging three similar threads together as that will make it much easier for members to find the answer(s).

Yeah, I have always knew that Dali was definitely its own dynastic kingdom, but thank you for confirming that the Song Dynasty did not feel threatened by Dali according to the “Mandate of Heaven” theory. I surmise the kingdom of Dali and the Song Dynasty lived in harmony with each other.

By the way, did the Dali Kings really bore the title of “Wang?” I remember reading Jin Yong’s novel “Tian Long Ba Bu,” where it referred to Duan Yu’s uncle as Bao Ding Di. Is that just a made-up title or a mistake in the novel? Or was “Di” translated as “Wang?”

Xie Xie,

Hii there, i do think that they really bore the title of "Wang" and the Duan family was quite well respected in Dali itself. From literature and history i searched about Dali, it seemed that the thing about their country was that they didn't really seem very territorially invasive. and their national religion was buddhism, which seemed to make their country not have any thoughts about snatching land from their neighbours.

Maybe other forumners can give you even more information

Happy New Year to ya!!

[shawn]

Well, back to the question, did Shi Ji record anything on how the Dali's army was being organised?

[Ludahai]

However, the Dali kingdom was definitely a different case. The Dali kingdom was founded by the Bai people, which is one of the 56 official ethnic groups of China.

Using the CURRENT official list of ethnic groups of China to prove cultural affinity of PAST kingdoms is simply unwarrented. Did the Bai and other ethnic groups in modern Yunnan consider themselves Chinese at that time? The answer is almost certainly no. Heck, many of them don't consider themselves Chinese TODAY!

I don’t believe the Dali kingdom was a vassal state to the Song Dynasty since it was independent; however, the Song Dynasty remained greatly respected by the Dali kingdom due to cultural similarities. The geographical location of Dali kingdom was still inside of China.

Debatable. If you mean MODERN China, sure. However, at that time in history, what is now called Yunnan was NOT generally considered a part of China.

According to tradition, there can never be two kingdoms holding the “Mandate of Heaven.” While the “Mandate of Heaven” belonged to the Song Dynasty, the Dali kingdom was merely a vassal state that Song Dynasty had granted its independence.

However, the Song was forced to share the Mandate with the Liao and then the Jin.

In order for Dali kingdom to be considered as a dynasty, it must have conquered and ruled all of China at some point or another, which of course, never happened. Being a foreign kingdom, the same regulations could not apply to the XiXia Dynasty.

Later Zhou? Later Liang? Both of Five Dynasties period? The first and last of those dynasties were Han dynasties, though neither was ever close to unifying the country.

Well, this is just my educated guess based on some of the readings that I have done. I have no proof of anything as this is just my speculations, so please don’t hold me accountable for the accuracy of my argument. Of course, I am always ready to be enlightened by other members!

Xie Xie,

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