42 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

I like to keep the corrections off the record.  ...  My associate and I were viewing the following page and he found this error.

http://www.chinahist...691&qpid=772402

Overview of Chinese Art of War


>>5. 6 Strategy (六韬)
It was believed to be written by Lu Shang (吕尚), General of Zhou during 200-100 BC.

>>6. 3 Strategy (三略)
Written by Lu Shang, General of Zhou during 200-10 BC

He has a question on Six Strategies. ... He was looking at Ralph Sawyer book- Seven Military Classics of Ancient China. He told me that 6 Strategies (六韬) was written by Jiang Tai Gong and 3 Strategies (三略) was supposed to be written by Huang Shi Gong (黃石公).

Who is correct!? ... You or him.

Thanks for your time. ... Have a good day!

Thanks for the notification: yes, I did made a mistake for the author of 3 strategies 3 Strategies (三略) , it should be Huang Shi Gong (黃石公) instead of Lu Shang

As for the 6 strategies (六韬), it was believed to be written by Lu Shang (吕尚), a General during western zhou dynasty. Lu Shang and Jiang Tai Gong (姜太公) are actually the same person. Jiang Tai Gong was his popular name. Lu Shang's alternative name is Lu Wang (吕望), while his style name is Jiang Ziya (姜子牙).

For more details, refer to
http://www.gchjs.com/bftl/liutao.htm
http://zh.wikipedia....i/黄ç%...¸‰ç•¥

Edited by General_Zhaoyun, 12 April 2005 - 02:47 AM.

[BlueDragonMagik]

Thanks for the notification: yes, I did made a mistake for the author of 3 strategies 3 Strategies (三略) , it should be Huang Shi Gong (黃石公) instead of Lu Shang

As for the 6 strategies (六韬), it was believed to be written by Lu Shang (吕尚), a General during western zhou dynasty. Lu Shang and Jiang Tai Gong (姜太公) are actually the same person.  Jiang Tai Gong was his popular name. Lu Shang's alternative name is Lu Wang (吕望), while his style name is Jiang Ziya (姜子牙).

For more details, refer to
http://www.gchjs.com/bftl/liutao.htm
http://zh.wikipedia....i/黄ç%...¸‰ç•¥

You are so welcome. ... Thanks for the information on Jiang Tai Gong. ...

[grandeur]

Zhuge Liang's Way Of generals was well written. Some of it was related to topic like confucius and other sages. I was wondering which countries's rulers and generals are practicing what Zhuge Liang had written..





“An idea that is developed and put into action is more important than an idea that exists only as an idea.” quoted by buddha.

Edited by grandeur, 06 February 2006 - 09:43 PM.

[CARDINAL009]

Zhuge Liang's Way Of generals was well written. Some of it was related to topic like confucius and other sages. I was wondering which countries's rulers and generals are practicing what Zhuge Liang had written..
“An idea that is developed and put into action is more important than an idea that exists only as an idea.” quoted by buddha.

In Sunzi AoW, there are an estimated # of 350+ principles.

Most ppl cannot remember even 5 of those principles or define the principles in terms of generalities and specifics.

They think and operate in terms of tactical strategy w/ no regards to grand strategy and vice-versa.

Based on my conversations w/ western scholars who spend time in China, most ppl in China barely understand the essence of Sunzi AoW.

Edited by CARDINAL009, 13 February 2006 - 09:17 PM.

[somechineseperson]

Of course not, Zhugeliang wrote some other articles. But "Way of General" is his only work on Art of War.

No "Way of the General" is not Zhuge Liang's only military text. He wrote other texts, but this might be the only one that has survived to the present day.

[LYY]

... 3 Strategies (三略) was supposed to be written by Huang Shi Gong (黃石公).

To understand the essence of I Ching, 3 Strategies (三略) is a book to count on. It gives a summary of the spirit of Yi in action.

As for the 6 strategies (六韬), it was believed to be written by Lu Shang (吕尚), a General during western zhou dynasty. Lu Shang and Jiang Tai Gong (姜太公) are actually the same person. Jiang Tai Gong was his popular name. Lu Shang's alternative name is Lu Wang (吕望), while his style name is Jiang Ziya (姜子牙).

6 strategies (六韬) makes one a good negotiator.
Life has more to offer other than negotiations and stratagems.
姜太公 obviously missed out this point.
Anyway, i like the way he fished ...

[CARDINAL009]

To understand the essence of I Ching, 3 Strategies (三略) is a book to count on. It gives a summary of the spirit of Yi in action.
6 strategies (六韬) makes one a good negotiator.
Life has more to offer other than negotiations and stratagems.
姜太公 obviously missed out this point.
Anyway, i like the way he fished ...

Understand your pov.
Q: How did 姜太公 missed out the point of life should it depend on what's one mission in life?

[LYY]

Understand your pov.
Q: How did 姜太公 missed out the point of life should it depend on what's one mission in life?

I would say 姜太公 is in Hexagram 5 - waiting, most part of his life.
Living a life of "waiting" (需) requires patience, and at the same time, an opportunity for spiritual cultivation. A person with this background should be able to see thru the real meanings in life apart from engrossing with tactics and stratagems for worldly affairs.

Edited by LYY, 13 March 2006 - 11:18 PM.

[CARDINAL009]

I would say 姜太公 is in Hexagram 5 - waiting, most part of his life.
Living a life of "waiting" (需) requires patience, and at the same time, an opportunity for spiritual cultivation. A person with this background should be able to see thru the real meanings in life apart from engrossing with tactics and stratagems for worldly affairs.

There's no right or wrong, as long as JTG was happy w. his decision.

[Yun]

將苑 (Jiang Yuan, or "Way of General" by Zhugeliang)
便宜十六策(Pianyi Shiliu Che, or "The easy 16 strategies" by Zhugeliang)

Just to clarify on this point: Most scholars regard these two works to be much later forgeries falsely attributed to Zhuge Liang.

Zhuge Liang wrote a piece of work called the Bingyao 兵要 (Military Essentials), according to his Sanguo Zhi biography, and the Sui Shu 隋书 imperial library catalogue notes that in the Liang 梁 dynasty (502-557) there was still a Zhuge Liang's Art of War 诸葛亮兵法 in the library, but is was lost since then. Now all that is left of Zhuge Liang's military writings is fragments of military regulations and instructions preserved in the Taiping Yulan 太平御览 and Beitang Shuchao 北堂书抄.

Wei
新書(partly lost, Xinshu or "New Book")
兵法(partly lost , Bingfa or "Art of War")
孫子略解 (Sunzi Luejie, or "Sunzi's Art of War Commentaries")

Cao Cao wrote a military treatise called either Xinshu 新书 (the New Manual) or Jieyao 接要 (Essentials), according to different works cited in Pei Songzhi's annotation to the Sanguo Zhi. The Sui Shu imperial catalogue lists the following works by Cao Cao, besides his commentary to Sunzi's Art of War:

Bingshu Jieyao 兵书接要 (Essentials of the Military Classics),
Bingfa Jieyao 兵法接要 (Essentials of the Art of War),
Bingshu Lueyao 兵书略要 (Brief Essentials of the Military Classics),
Xu Sunzi Bingfa 续孙子兵法 (Sequel to Sunzi's Art of War),
and Wei Wudi Bingfa 魏武帝兵法 (Art of War of the Emperor Wu of Wei).

The Jiu Tangshu 旧唐书 imperial catalogue, reflecting the library during the Kaiyuan 开元 reign period (early 8th century), shows that the Bingfa Jieyao 兵法接要 was still around, but was now called slightly differently as the Bingfa Jieyao 兵法捷要 (Quick Essentials of the Art of War). There was now also a Bingfa Yaolue 兵法要略 (Brief Essentials of the Art of War) attributed to Cao Pi. The other works by Cao Cao had been lost.

The Xin Tangshu 新唐书 catalogue, reflecting the library at the end of the Tang, lists the Bingfa Yaolue 兵法要略 of Cao Pi under a new name, Bingshu Yaolue 兵书要略 (Brief Essentials of the Military Classics) - almost exactly the same name as one of Cao Cao's books. But Cao Cao's Bingfa Jieyao 兵法接要 is not on the list, and presumably was lost during the An Lushan Rebellion. Strangely, however, Cao Cao's Xu Sunzi Bingfa 续孙子兵法 resurfaces in this later catalogue!

We don't know when Cao Pi's Bingshu Yaolue and Cao Cao's Xu Sinzi Bingfa (if the Xin Tangshu one was the authentic one) were lost, but today we have no exant military works by Cao Pi and only the Sunzi commentary and some scattered military regulations and orders by Cao Cao.

Liang
三十六計 (Sanshi Liuji, or "36 strategies")
古今刀劍錄 (Gujin Daojianlu, or "the lists of ancient swords"

The Sui Shu, Jiu Tangshu and Xin Tangshu list several more military strategy works from the Age of Fragmentation and Sui. They include works by the famous Daoists Ge Hong 葛洪 and Tao Hongjing 陶弘景 (besides 古今刀劍錄 which is attributed to Tao, he also wrote a strategy work entitled Zhenren Shuijing 真人水镜, 'Reflective Water for the Perfect Man'), Liu Yu 刘裕 the founding emperor of the Liu-Song dynasty, Xiao Yan 萧衍 the founding emperor of the Liang dynasty, Xiao Yi 萧绎 the fourth emperor of the Liang dynasty, Yuwen Xian 宇文宪 the Prince of Qi in the Northern Zhou dynasty, and Yang Jian 杨坚 the founding emperor of the Sui dynasty. Unfortunately none of these books has survived, otherwise we would know a lot more about Age of Fragmentation warfare.

[CARDINAL009]

Just to clarify on this point: Most scholars regard these two works to be much later forgeries falsely attributed to Zhuge Liang.

Zhuge Liang wrote a piece of work called the Bingyao 兵要 (Military Essentials), according to his Sanguo Zhi biography, and the Sui Shu 隋书 imperial library catalogue notes that in the Liang 梁 dynasty (502-557) there was still a Zhuge Liang's Art of War 诸葛亮兵法 in the library, but is was lost since then. Now all that is left of Zhuge Liang's military writings is fragments of military regulations and instructions preserved in the Taiping Yulan 太平御览 and Beitang Shuchao 北堂书抄.

q: Why was it falsely attributed to Zhuge Liang?

q: Do you think Six Secret Teachings was ever written by Jiang Tai Gong?

Edited by CARDINAL009, 11 September 2006 - 08:02 PM.

[Master Ghost Valley]

The Way of the General Essay on Leadership and Crisis Management
Authored by Zhuge Liang (Kongming)
Translated by Thomas Cleary

Tyler: I just happened on your post of same time ago. Thank you for it. it is a great piece of work. I have enjoyed many of Cleary' translation but had not seen this one.

Nice gesture:
Master Ghost Valley

[Boris71]

It take many years for me to understand the points in Sunzi Bingfa, I think, though the way of fighting changed, the nature of war never change. I think that's why this book is still useful for a strategist. Yes, the problem on this book is it's written in ancient Chinese, and some portion of idea is impossible to be translated into any other language.
But hereby I want to simplify the idea in that book and present a simplified view of the book in English, which I think is most important for today.
First, Sunzi present his view of war, of course for Helu to consider, in a simplified wordy, what he said about war is that war is a game at cost of life and money, and you put your soldier and your people in a risky environment in a war with another nation, you must gain the support from your people, or you'll lose. I think Vietnam war is a good example how US finally lost domestic support and have to retreat from the battlefield. It's clear NO ONE, NO SOLDIER want to risk his life and fight for bullshit, and no matter how well trained your soldier, how good your weaponry, you'll suffer casualties in military actions.
Second, due to risky nature of war, everything should be carefully planned in advance,the more you understand the situation of battle, and choose the correct tactics,you'll fight in a more determined way and easier to achieve success.
Third, it's vital to have a well organized and trained and professional army,but for a good general, he should know clearly where to apply their force,where they can fight, where they should avoid fighting, in one word, he should know his soldier and his enemy in and out. I guess this point is easily missed in today's bureaucratic army, as the general seldom see his soldiers and understand the real difficulty the mission assigned to them.
The rest points is the same as many other military books, for a professional soldier today, no need repeat those points.