10 replies to this topic

[Peng]

Someone asked me if Chinese has a grim reaper or not. I said there are two guys that are pretty closer to Western grim reaper: 黑白無常 (Heibai Wuchang) or Black & White Impermanents (?) Black Wuchang is supposed to have angry or sad face and leads people to Hell. White Wuchang is supposed to have happy face and leads people to Heaven.

I am not certain if my description is right or not. I looked up them in Chinese search engine. I found those pictures and they confused me:
http://www.cd-chhm.c...mheiwuchang.jpg - Black Wuchang with happy face?
http://www.cd-chhm.c...mbaiwuchang.jpg - White Wuchang with sad face?

Anyone provide more details on those Chinese grim reapers? What is the origin of those Wuchang?

Edited by General_Zhaoyun, 01 September 2005 - 12:14 PM.

[General_Zhaoyun]

There is a good chinese article on the explanation of "black and white Wuchang" at
http://www.18zw.com/.../200503/260.htm

Basically, in chinese mythology, the "black and white Wuchang" are the ghosts from the hell whose responsibilities are to pick up the ghostly spirit from the dead person and transport it to hell.

What is "wuchang 无常"? Wuchang refers to the escort or 'messenger' from the hell to transport a dead spirit from the hell to human world or vice versa.

Why must "Wuchang" be differentiated into black and white? And not yellow, purple or some other color? Basically, black and white are not due to the skin color or dressing color, but rather they are representation of "Yin 阴" and "Yang 阳" (dual forces in the world). The black represents the "yin", while the white represents the "yang". This is similar to the Taiji diagram's black and white, which was based on the theory of Yin and Yang.

Why must there be two "wuchang" and not just one?

Firstly, we need to figure out what is spirit 魂 and soul 魄. According to dictionary, spirit is a 'superstitious' saying, it refers to a "spiritual body" that leaves the body but still existing. Soul refers to the 'spiritual body' that still sticks to the body. Although most people tends to put soul and spirit together, but there are differences. The spirit refers to the spiritual essence while the soul actually refers to the spiritual force, which according to Yin-yang theory is the "Qi 气" (or breath).

When a person die, two 'wuchang' are needed because one of them is responsible for picking up the 'spirit' that leaves the dead body, while other other is responsible for 'dispersing' the soul in the body (by absorbing the soul). From then on, the 'dead spirit' is transported to the hell.

The Yin and Yang needs to be co-ordinated. Suppose Yang is "positive +" force while Yin is "negative -" force.

For a male, he consists of "Yin" spirit and "Yang" soul. If he dies, the white wuchang, which represents "yang", would pickup his "yin" spirit (yang attracted to yin force), while the black wuchang, which represents "yin", would disperse the "yang" soul in the body (yin absorbs/attracts yang force).

For a female, she consists of "Yang" spirit and "Yin" soul. If she dies, the black wuchang, which represents "yin", would pick up her "Yang" spirit (yin attracted to yang force), while the white wuchang, which represents "yang", would disperse the "Yin" soul in the body (yang aborbs/attracts yin force).

Edited by General_Zhaoyun, 01 September 2005 - 12:33 PM.

[nicholas]

For me their story was..... the two of them was once human.... but something happen to them ... i forgotten wat matter ... the black knock his head against a pillar and the white one i forgotten also haha... so after they died .. they wander off in the human world.... and there is one time the king of hell..(note: there is one Yan Wang in the taosium but got other magistrate justice bao is one of them) was patroling the streets and found them ...and thinking of using them to help patrol and bring souls to the hell ... they were just lyk police from the underworld...which escort souls...capture bad spirits.... my uncle is a medium so he told me this story when i ask but i forgot some of the parts

Edited by nicholas, 05 December 2007 - 02:45 AM.

[fireball]

There are a lot of legends regarding these two spirits. This link have the origin of them in Chinese, and I have translated the story beneath it.

http://zh.wikipedia....i/黑ç%...„¡å¸¸

According to Chinese wikipedia.org, they are called General Fan and General Xie or 7th master and 8th master. The White Wuchang is called "Xie Bi-an 謝必安". He is tall and skinny, and people call him "Qi-Ye 七爺 (7th master)". The Black Wuchang is called "Fan Wu-jiu 范無救". He is short and fat, and people call him "Ba-Ye 八爺 (8th master)".

It was said that they were policemen in ancient time. During a prisoner transfer, they lost the prisoner, so they decided to split up to search for the prisoner. They planned to meet up under the Bridge. However, it was raining hard, and Xie Bi-an did not make it in time. Fan Wujiu was waiting under the Bridge for a long time and dared not leave. Eventually, Fan was drowned when the flood came. When Xie arrived and saw Fan was dead, he killed himself by hanging. Afterwards, the Heavenly Emperor saw that they were loyal to their duties and each other, so he appointed them gods to pick up dead people's spirits.

There are supposed spiritual meanings about their names. "Xie Bi-an" means that one would be saved if one sacrifice to the gods (酬"謝 Xie"神明) or repent ("謝 Xie" 罪悔過). "Fan Wu-jiu" means if one committed sins (Fan zui "犯"罪), one would not be saved (Wu-jiu 無救).

Also, if you have a chance to visit Taiwan and see the parades of goddess Ma-Zu, you would see 2 persons dressed up like them in the front part of the parade. They are called Qi-Ye and Ba-Ye there.

[Pattie]

Also, if you have a chance to visit Taiwan and see the parades of goddess Ma-Zu, you would see 2 persons dressed up like them in the front part of the parade. They are called Qi-Ye and Ba-Ye there.

Excellent!! Thank you for the info!!

[kaiselin]

Found this on the black and white guards;

Black and White Guards of Impermanence

Hell has two infamous ghost guards - Black Guard of Impermanence and White Guard of Impermanence. It is said that when a person's time is up, King Yama will send these two guards to escort the person down to the netherworld. The Black Guard of Impermanence has a fearsome countenance and inscribed on his headgear are the words 'Death visits those who meet me'. He is in charge of hunting down diabolical spirits. The White Guard of Impermanence has a kind and friendly air about him. Written on his headgear are the words 'Fortune greets those who meet me'. He guides the spirits of kind people to the netherworld. Later, people even revere him as the God of Fortune.

Oxhead Guard and Horseface Guard

This equally-famous duo comprises Oxhead Guard and Horseface Guard. It is said that they were an ox and horse in their previous lives. To reward them for their hard work, King Yama appointed them as ghost guards
http://www.freewebs....plecustoms2.htm


I had been wondering if Oxhead and Horseface were the same as the black and white guards.

[fireball]

I had been wondering if Oxhead and Horseface were the same as the black and white guards.

In China, the Oxhead and Horseface have actual ox head and horse face respectively, and they are not blackk and white guards.

[nicholas]

ok i am sure abt the story because i ask my uncle again..."Xie Bi-an 謝必安" n "Fan Wu-jiu 范無救" is the number 7th and 8th is their family respectivitly ... so they are call qi ye ... and ba ye... they are very good to each other and they like to gamble alot... their family chase them out ...and don't care about their life or death ... they had no choice but to stay and sleep on the streets ..so one day they discuss and decided that they cannot keep on staying like this ... so they decide to work at the yamen .. as guards... they work hard and their performance help them to get promote to supervisor ...

one day ... they were to transport a prisoner for execution ... so before transport... the prisoner ask ba ye for a favour that is to release him and let him go home to tell his family things and he swear he will return before the execution time.... well ba ye was actually a kind man n qi ye is the opposite... so he discuss with qi ye .. but qi ye disagree at first.....so ba ye tell qi ye that .. he will take all resposibilty if he never comes back ... so qi ye agreed... but as time pass by ..hours n hours late..the prisoner didn't come back as he promised...

so qi ye decide to take up the respossibilty behalf of ba ye .. before he die .. he say that.. after life... he shall change his temper to treat ppl gd... then he hang himself in the prison cell.. so when ba ye come in and saw qi ye was dead... so he say that qi ye's death was all cause by him... because of letting the prisoner off... and also before he died ... he decide that ... by treating ppl kind.. they took advantage ..so he will nt treat anyone kind anymore,... and then he knock his head against the wall... and died...

so when they are dead... no one pray to them and offer altar to them so after 7 days .. they become wander ghost... wandering from places to places ..so one day ... Justice bao( the 7th hell magistrate ) was thinking of ways to solve how to capture spirits n guide them to hell for report... just nice ... he saw the two of them wandering ... so he call them... and knowing tat they are guards in their previous life.. so he offer them as hell guards to guide n capture souls.. to hell... for report... one is white skin .. n one is dark skin one is tall and other is short ... so he give the title 黑白無常 (Heibai Wuchang)...

they are actually no differents from normal spirit but ppl starts to pray to them so they are famous and they are known nowadays as "da ye po" n "er ye po" ...

note: they are not appointed by jade emperor so their rank is lower than "san ye po" .. "san ye po" is known as " 孝子爺 " (pronous in chinese Xiào Zi Ye) "hao zi ya"( pronous in hokkien) another hell guard which carry a lantern and a stick with many small pieces of white cloths stick to it ..well "san ye po( hao zi ya )" is appointed by jade emperor so he has the higher rank than the 黑白無常 (Heibai Wuchang)....

Edited by nicholas, 07 November 2009 - 01:30 AM.

[kaiselin]

ok i am sure abt the story cos i ask my uncle again..."Xie Bi-an 謝必安" n "Fan Wu-jiu 范無救" is the number 7th and 8th is their family respectivitly ... so they are call qi ye ... and ba ye... they are very gd to each other n they lyk to gamble alot... and one day .. their family chase them out ...and dun care abt the life n death ... so they had no choice but to stay n slp at the streets ..so one day they discuss n say tat .. they cnt keep on staying lyk this ... so they decide to work at the yamen .. as guards... they work hard n their performance help them to get promote to supervisor ...

one day ... they were to transport a prisoner for execution ... so before transport... the prisoner ask ba ye for a favour tat is to release him n let him go hm to tell his family things n he swear he will return before the execution time.... well ba ye was actually a kind man n qi ye is the opposite... so he go n discuss wif qi ye .. but qi ye disagree at first.....so ba ye tell qi ye tat .. he will take all resposibilty if he nv comes bk ... so qi ye agree... but as time pass by ..hrs n hrs late..the prisoner didn't come bk as he promise ...

so qi ye decide to tk up the resposibilty behalf of ba ye .. before he die .. he say tat.. after life... he shall change his temper to treat ppl gd... then he hang himself in the prison cell.. so when ba ye come in n saw qi ye was dead... so he say tat qi ye's death was all cause by him... because of letting the prisoner off... n also before he died ... he decide tat ... by treating ppl kind.. they took advantage ..so he will nt treat anyone kind any more,... n then he knock his head against the wall... n dead...

so when they are dead... no one pray to them n offer altar to them so after 7 days .. they become wander ghost... wandering from places to places ..so one day ... Justice bao( the 7th hell magistrate ) was thinking of ways to solve hw to capture spirits n guide them to hell for report... just nice ... he saw the two of them wandering ... so he call them... n knwing tat they are guards in their previous life.. so he offer them as hell guards to guide n capture souls.. to hell... for report... one is white skin .. n one is dark skin one is tall n other is short ... so he give the title 黑白無常 (Heibai Wuchang)...

they are actually no differents from normal spirit but ppl starts to pray to them so they r famous n they r known nowadays as "da ye po" n "er ye po" ... note: they are nt appointed by jade emperor so their rank is lower than "san ye po" .. "san ye po" is known as "hao zi ya( pronous in hokkien)" another hell guard which carry a lantern and a stick with many small pieces of white cloths stick to it ..well "san ye po( hao zi ya )" is appointed by jade emperor so he has the higher rank than the 黑白無常 (Heibai Wuchang)....

Very nice variation to the story, nicholas,

Thank you for posting it.

If you are interested enough to ask a relative to tell you a story and post it here I am very pleased. And I want to encourage you to continue to ask your relatives to relate to you tales for their past.
We would all love to hear interesting personal stories from the past and old Chinese myths and tales.

I understand that how you wrote this story saves a great deal of time when posting something.
but....( and I do not want to discourage you from posting,)
I do have one request..

I speak and read English well, and yet I had to guess at much of what you wrote.
While it is interesting to see English evolve , I am not yet ready to quite give in to the new changes yet.
Imagine how difficult it must be for the people who are trying to learn to read English without also trying to learn to read shortened computerese.
Lets keep that in mind the next time you post and try to use standard English spelling.

[nicholas]

o ic... ok

[nicholas]

ok i have edited them again haha sry i use short forms to type faster ^^