45 replies to this topic

[dragonlord]

He was stating the book says he start about the decline of ming.. started in wanli 15th yr regin..

Everyone pointing their fingers to wanli.. maybe one day we should to go HUGE tomb and throw banana

Haizzz...seems everybody point to Wanli Emperor. If I'm not mistaken, he was a lazy ruler. He let all officals did work for him...

[Emperor_HonG]

Of cos.. he extort money , offical also extort money.. how not go blankrupt when it was still fighting a seven yr war..

the army paid docked.. i was wondering y they didnt reply and still fought for the country !!!!!!!

[dragonlord]

Of cos.. he extort money , offical also extort money.. how not go blankrupt when it was still fighting a seven yr war..

the army paid docked.. i was wondering y they didnt reply and still fought for the country !!!!!!!

I'm also wondering why the Ming troops stil fought even though they had not been paid yet. Maybe they thought fighting for nation. Money comes later...

[khwarazm]

In the Ming-shi (Official History of the Ming) by Zhang Tingyu, written in the 18th century under the Manchus, Zhang writes, "Of the Ming reigns, the only good monarchs were Hong-wu, Yongle, Xuande and then the revival under Cheng-hua and Hongzhi"

Basically, the strong adminstration under Hongzhi (1466-88 A.D.) could not be maintained under the Jiaqing (1522-66), Longqing, nor Wan-li period. There were many problems that arose:

1) the growth of the Imperial Family (the princes) towards about 80,000 men under Wanli was a drain on the imperial budget as close members fo the Imperial Clan received a stipend from the state.

2) the Imperial Clan and the Imperial Family necessitated a growth in eunuchs. They numbered in the tens of thousands by the Wanli reign. Maybe 100,000 in capital and outside. Each of course received a salary.

3) the civil bureaucracy grew to 20,000 men under Wanli, a real problem of organization and coordination without a prime minister.

4) Wanli refused to attend to the morning audience with the grand secretaries and thus caused a deadlock in the machinery of government. The carpenter Emperor to follow was not much better.

5) Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion of Choson was very costly for the Ming.

6) The Post system was incredibly in need of reform and yet, there was no revenue to maintain it. Thus, a key aspect of security was compromised.

7) The tax system was out of date in many areas and perhaps abusive in other areas. Li Zicheng used this to his advantage.


Overall, many think that the tax system was to blame for the downfall of the Ming.

[dragonlord]

In the Ming-shi (Official History of the Ming) by Zhang Tingyu, written in the 18th century under the Manchus, Zhang writes, "Of the Ming reigns, the only good monarchs were Hong-wu, Yongle, Xuande and then the revival under Cheng-hua and Hongzhi"

Basically, the strong adminstration under Hongzhi (1466-88 A.D.) could not be maintained under the Jiaqing (1522-66), Longqing, nor Wan-li period. There were many problems that arose:

1) the growth of the Imperial Family (the princes) towards about 80,000 men under Wanli was a drain on the imperial budget as close members fo the Imperial Clan received a stipend from the state.

2) the Imperial Clan and the Imperial Family necessitated a growth in eunuchs. They numbered in the tens of thousands by the Wanli reign. Maybe 100,000 in capital and outside. Each of course received a salary.

3) the civil bureaucracy grew to 20,000 men under Wanli, a real problem of organization and coordination without a prime minister.

4) Wanli refused to attend to the morning audience with the grand secretaries and thus caused a deadlock in the machinery of government. The carpenter Emperor to follow was not much better.

5) Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion of Choson was very costly for the Ming.

6) The Post system was incredibly in need of reform and yet, there was no revenue to maintain it. Thus, a key aspect of security was compromised.

7) The tax system was out of date in many areas and perhaps abusive in other areas. Li Zicheng used this to his advantage.
Overall, many think that the tax system was to blame for the downfall of the Ming.

Why Chong Zhen Emperor was not included as part of good monarchs?

[luhai167]

the empire did collapse under Chong Zhen. also he is thought to be very frugal and can't trust people. Those are not very good qualities for a emperor. but he is not indifferent about the situation, and wants to revive the empire.

I would think he could be a good emperor in easy and laid back times, but no in a crisis.

[Emperor_HonG]

luhai is right.. wat luhai say somewat reminds me that chong zhen was like hongwu emperor.. just that hongwu would be more capable in times of crisis where there was no one to trust.. chong zhen was good.. its just that he not capable..

[dragonlord]

luhai is right.. wat luhai say somewat reminds me that chong zhen was like hongwu emperor.. just that hongwu would be more capable in times of crisis where there was no one to trust.. chong zhen was good.. its just that he not capable..

I think that Chong Zhen was really in chaos while deciding matters. He had to deal internal and external matters. Besides, some of the officials were corrupt...

[labi_tail]

Why did Ming Dynasty fell????
Chongzhen emperor was a hardworkin n delilgent emperor....
he was tryin his best to save Ming....
wat actually went wrong n wat can he do better???

[Yang Zongbao]

Hello Labi,

Have you tried the CHF search function? Along with wikipedia, they may help immensely. =)

[大学语文12345]

All in all, Ming empire was destroyed by their own corruption! They had lost heart and support of their people.

Why did Ming Dynasty fell????
Chongzhen emperor was a hardworkin n delilgent emperor....
he was tryin his best to save Ming....
wat actually went wrong n wat can he do better???

[jhf0551]

Why did Ming Dynasty fell????
Chongzhen emperor was a hardworkin n delilgent emperor....
he was tryin his best to save Ming....
wat actually went wrong n wat can he do better???

Yes, Chongzhen is a diligent emperor. However, he has several fatal weaknesses. He is too skeptical to his underlings. One good example is that, he changed Grand Secretaries (Da Xue Shi) 50 times during his short reign. These Grand Secretaries are called "Chongzhen 50 Ministers". Some of them were in this position for no more than 1 month before kicked out by Chongzhen! Chongzhen also distrusted his greatest general, Yuan Chonghuan, and finally killed him. Another thing is that Chongzhen is more ambitious than capable. He didn't know what is the reason for the downfall of his empire. He still thought it was loyalty that matters.

Edited by jhf0551, 16 April 2008 - 03:35 PM.

[Sugar]

the Ming dynasty were times of great prosperity and had hopes of making china into a greated and dominant power. Why did the Ming dynasty not live up to its potential despite the opportunites that were present during its respective periods?

[大泽升龙]

the Ming dynasty were times of great prosperity and had hopes of making china into a greated and dominant power. Why did the Ming dynasty not live up to its potential despite the opportunites that were present during its respective periods?

In fact, the late Ming was not great at all except its name and population.

[DaMo]

One of Chuck Norris' roundhouses was so fast it went back in time and destroyed the Ming dynasty.

On a serious note of summary, it was a combination of external threats (Japanese, Machus) plus internal political conflict and incompetence plus economic neglect and decay, culminating in treason, rebellion and invasion.