230 replies to this topic

[Gubook Janggoon]

They're still Chinese. Like native Hawaian being American. At least citizenship wise that is. If you delve deeper than that you'll just open up a can of worms. That's why I like the idea of citizenship so much.

I agree, but that's not the question that we're dealing with...at least as far as I know.

No one's going to claim that Hawaii was a part of United States territory before it's annexation because all Hawaiians are now American.

A can of worms? Yea, but it's interesting to play with the worms.

[Lin Duanwen]

You're missing the point of the analogy. 

You said: "Manchus are Chinese. Manchu's soil, of course equal to Chinese soil."

Why can't I say: "Mongols are Chinese. Mongol's soil, of course equal to Chinese soil."

Do you get the logic? 

If you can say that all Manchu territory before their formal transformation into a "Chinese" entity is Chinese territory, then one could say that for all of the ethnic minorities in China.

The list could go on and on.

I could very well say:  "Russians are Chinese. Russian's soil, of course equal to Chinese soil."

This presents quite an enigma.  Russians and Mongols are both official ethnic minorities of China.  They are therefore Chinese. 

Is it logical to take that one step further and to claim that the histories of these ethnic groups, before becoming Chinese (In the case of Russians never) as a part of Chinese history?

If so, we have a few interesting historical instances.

The Russians were conquered by the Mongols, but later were able to kick the Mongols out of their land, thus gaining independence.

But since Russians and Mongols are both Chinese...The Chinese were conquered by the Chinese, but later on the Chinese kicked the Chinese out of their land, thus gaining independence.

Am I making sense?

Sorry, I made a mistake to say Manchus are Chinese so Manchus soil are Chinese soil. Below is my correction:

The Manchus recieved the mandate of heaven to rule China, so any Manchu's territories are Chinese territories. As for the entire Mongol Empire, only the Emperor of Yuan Dynasty had the mandate of heaven, so Chinese territories are limited to Yuan Dynasty.

[Gubook Janggoon]

I agree that after receiving the mandate of heaven, any Manchu land would have become Chinese lands, but any lands that the Manchus had before that did not stay with them after receiving the mandate would not have.

[Tibet Libre]

You don't have to belong to an ethnicity to be Chinese. duh.

You are confusing things. We were talking about ethnicity, an age old concept, while you are talking about citizenship, a modern concept which dates back to the French Revolution and the invention of the passport, that is between 1789 to 1900 and beyond.

Manchu were not people of Chinese ethnicity and didn't define themselves as such, so why should "Manchu's soil be, of course equal to Chinese soil"?

[Tibet Libre]

I agree that after receiving the mandate of heaven, any Manchu land would have become Chinese lands, but any lands that the Manchus had before that did not stay with them after receiving the mandate would not have.

German nobles became kings of Great Britain (the Hanover dynasty, today Wcalled Windsors), Russia (Catherine the Great) and many other European states, but I have yet to hear from a German deriving from their mandate any territorial claims against these nations...how come?

[Lin Duanwen]

German nobles became kings of Great Britain (the Hanover dynasty, today Wcalled Windsors), Russia (Catherine the Great) and many other European states, but I have yet to hear from a German deriving from their mandate any territorial claims against these nations...how come?

A Shang royal member, Jizi(Gija) established Gija-Joseon in Korea. A Chinese general Wei Man(Wiman) also established Wiman-Joseon in Korea. But Gija and Wiman Joseon are not considered as ancient Chinese Kingdoms.

Maybe some experts in CHF can explain to you what exactly is the "Mandate of Heaven". Any experts? Pls help.

[naruwan]

German nobles became kings of Great Britain (the Hanover dynasty, today Wcalled Windsors), Russia (Catherine the Great) and many other European states, but I have yet to hear from a German deriving from their mandate any territorial claims against these nations...how come?

I love these debate. Nice to just sit back, not have to say a word, and yet have everything I want to say said.

Edited by naruwan, 08 September 2005 - 01:20 AM.

[Too hi Fat]

Try to seperate Chinese the Ethinc group and Chinese the Nationality.

I usually do it by calling Chinese Nationals "Chinaman" and Chinese ethnic group "Chinese". OR sometimes Just for laughs Chinkkies and ChingChongs. (If some P.C thug *with NO SENSE OF HUMOUR* report this as racist ... I'm gonna be very angry )

So ... Mongolian living in China and has Chinese nationality is a Chinaman NOT Chinese

[Too hi Fat]

Oh 1 more thing ...

Anglo-Saxon are Germans from the Land of Angle (Near the Danish/German border) and Saxony(South of Angle).

The Normans (1066 invasion of Saxon England) were later version of the Angles from a land very nearby.

English are Germans ...

Russians are mostly of Viking decent not Germanic ... (The royal family has german blood mainly couse of queen victoria)

[naruwan]

Oh 1 more thing ...

Anglo-Saxon are Germans from the Land of Angle (Near the Danish/German border) and Saxony(South of Angle).

The Normans (1066 invasion of Saxon England) were later version of the Angles from a land very nearby.

English are Germans ...

Russians are mostly of Viking decent not Germanic ... (The royal family has german blood mainly couse of queen victoria)

And.... the Celtish population on Engliand supposedly all just died off in your book....

[xng]

Can china get back its territory from russia ? Why is it so bent on getting taiwan back and not former chinese territories like russia far east ?

Portugal and britain already handed back hong kong and macau.

Edited by xng, 08 September 2005 - 07:06 AM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"but I have yet to hear from a German deriving from their mandate any territorial claims against these nations...how come?"



Consider China don't claim these territories anymore, your argument fails in meaning.

[Too hi Fat]

Celts are different all together. And yes, the celts did not fare well when the Angles and Saxons turned up in 500AD.

Using racial gene sampling (I am not a keen fan of this ... I think it is not accurate) archeologist believe that most of the "celts" from Ireland and Wales are not pure blooded celts and has a lot of germanic blood in them. its believed that celts essentially got assimilated into the germanic line (genetically speaking).

The closest group (Sorry forgotten thier name) they found are a bunch of people near the Kyrgistan/Chinese border. How the conclusion came about was that the genetisist eliminated all the germanic markers from the current Irish/Walsh population and compared them all to this group and their genetic markers match the combined markers the best. (I am not a keen fan of these techniques ... I think they are dodgy)

Gauls didn't do to well either. The only group that is left are those is Basque Country. Even those "gauls" are mostly goths in thier genetic makeup.

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China wants the land back ... that doesn't mean that they'll get it back. They still claim it ... but no one will give it back willingly. China will do things one step at a time ... First Hong Kong, then Macau, then Taiwan, then Nothern Vietnam, then Mongolia, then Kasmir, etc.

PRC's excuse for wanting it back is "We (Imperial China) used to rule it ... so it is ours ... so now we want it back"

Using Taiwan as an example ... ... PRC claim of ROC is that they ruled it since the Manchu Dynasty. But before that Taiwan was NOT part of Imperial China. So, this current freedom from the yoke of China is as it should be ... indepandence from China like it was before Imperial China invaded it.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"China wants the land back ... that doesn't mean that they'll get it back. They still claim it ... but no one will give it back willingly."

No they don't. The Russian territory was accepted to be part of Russia in the treaty signed justa fe wyears ago. The other territory claims are not based on imperial possession of the past, but by the western concept of "Soverignty" which was lost. As for Taiwan its also based on international law, whether one interpret it differently or not. You don't see China claim territory such as Korea or Vietnam when they are imperial possessions of the past just the same.

[Mei Houwang]

You are confusing things. We were talking about ethnicity, an age old concept, while you are talking about citizenship, a modern concept which dates back to the French Revolution and the invention of the passport, that is between 1789 to 1900 and beyond.

I thought you were talking of nationality instead of ethnicity. I don't think Chinese is an ethnicity though. I doubt even Han is.