230 replies to this topic

[phoenix_bladen]

I thought you were talking of nationality instead of ethnicity. I don't think Chinese is an ethnicity though. I doubt even Han is.

yup there was a thread about the han ethnicity here .......

i doubt han is an ethnicity either....

[xng]

No they don't. The Russian territory was accepted to be part of Russia in the treaty signed justa fe wyears ago. The other territory claims are not based on imperial possession of the past, but by the western concept of "Soverignty" which was lost.

According to this, russia did invaded some chinese territories

http://english.epoch...8-17/31330.html

[xng]

Yes, any former Manchus territories now passed through is now considered Chinese territories because:

The Chinese (Hans) overthrew the Qing Dynasty (Manchus) in the early 20th century and setup 'Republic of China' and it had retained all the territories that were held onto by the late Qing dynasty. In short, the Chinese got back their lands plus all the other lands that were conquered by the Qing when they finally defeated the Manchus from powers inside China. Btw, the Manchus did also used Chinese (Han) forces to subdue/conquer other forces/ and lands. So don't see it as if the Chinese were really gotten most of the land  for free without any bloodshed. Without the helps of the Chinese (Hans), Qing dynasty territorial size wouldn't be that large either.... and since the Manchus has now been assimilated in China, they're now Chinese anyway.

Well said ! Anyway, outer manchuria is still within russian hands....

[phoenix_bladen]

According to this, russia did invaded some chinese territories

http://english.epoch...8-17/31330.html

wow i'm shocked and sad to see what jiang zemin did.....

[General_Zhaoyun]

Don't trust Epochtimes.. Epochtimes is an Anti-CCP site and will more likely attack CCP politicians such as Jiang Zemin.

[naruwan]

Don't trust Epochtimes.. Epochtimes is an Anti-CCP site and will more likely attack CCP politicians such as Jiang Zemin.

yeah, GZ, because media in China are all fair and just and not biased like Epochtimes.....

XD

[xng]

Just found another website which has slightly different maps during the dynasties.

Don't know how accurate these maps are ?

http://www.mnsu.edu/...na/map/map.html

So I have to update my list:

1. North korea - Han, Ming, Ching dynasty

2. South korea - Ching dynasty

2. North vietnam - Han, Tang, Ming, Ching dynasties

3. Kyrgyzstan - Han, Tang, Ching dynasty

4. Outer Mongolia - Yuan, Ching dynasty

5. Outer manchuria (far east russia) - Ming, Ching dynasty.

[DaMo]

That site seems to be including tributaries as well, with no distinguishing color. Also includes territories that were held for very short periods of time during each dynasty.

If you consider long term territory only:

1. North korea - Han (tributary of Ming and Ching dynasty)

2. South korea - Tributary of Ching dynasty

2. North vietnam - Han to Tang, Ming only for a few decades (tributary of Ching dynasty)

3. Kazakhstan (not Kyrgyzstan, and upto Lake Balkash) - Han (may have been more of a protectorate then, can someone please verify?), Tang, Ching dynasty

4. Outer Mongolia - Yuan, Ching dynasty (I believe the Ming led military expeditions into O.M., don't know if they actually held any territory there)

5. Outer manchuria (far east russia) - Ming(extent? influence?), Ching dynasty

There were also a number of other tributaries of the Qing, including Siam, Ryukyu and Nepal.

[xng]

There were also a number of other tributaries of the Qing, including Siam, Ryukyu and Nepal.

Thanks for refining the details.

For outer mongolia, as can be seen from my earlier map, the southern part of outer mongolia was part of china during ming dynasty but only a very small part. So I wouldn't include the whole of outer mongolia.

From the earlier map of the URL I gave, they included outer manchuria facing the sea of japan. This is also confirmed by this new map here during the ming dynasty.

http://www.ucalgary....rvoya/ming.html

Edited by xng, 17 September 2005 - 12:00 PM.

[Gubook Janggoon]

That Ming map's pretty bad.

If it's including tributaries, both Northern and Southern Korea should be included. If they're not including tributaries, Korea should be taken out all together.

I find it hilarious that they draw the line for Ming occupation of Korea at the current DMZ.



Looking at the Tang dynasty map, it looks like they're including Barhe/Bohai into the mix too. They ignore the northern eastern lands of Barhae though and seem to extend it a bit too far to the north.

Han dynasty control of Korea seems to be a bit exaggerated also, but then again, no one really knows where the Han commanderies were actually located, so that bit's up to some real debate.

BTW, Where's the Sui dynasty and what's the Chin dynasty?

[xng]

BTW, Where's the Sui dynasty and what's the Chin dynasty?

They used a different romanisation scheme, it is called the Jin dynasty just after the 3 kingdoms and before the sui dynasty. I guess they excluded the sui dynasty because it was too short < 40 years and therefore does not really represent the era between the han and tang dynasty ie. insignificant

http://en.wikipedia....Chinese_history

[Gubook Janggoon]

They used a different romanisation scheme, it is called the Jin dynasty just after the 3 kingdoms and before the sui dynasty. I guess they excluded the sui dynasty because it was too short < 40 years and therefore does not really represent the era between the han and tang dynasty ie. insignificant

http://en.wikipedia....Chinese_history

Ah, thank you.

[xng]

at the begining of qing(qian long) is not so large !! at least xinjiang not included !!!!

I thought part of xinjiang (around silk road) was part of china beginning from the han dynasty. But it was lost during some of the later dynasty.