230 replies to this topic

[Karl]

Qing 1908

[xng]

Anyway, the general answer I got was that they’re not necessary inaccurate, but it depends on a number of factors, including interpretation, period, etc. After all, in some cases we’re talking about many centuries ago.

We cannot have a snapshot map of the territory for every year in the dynasty as a dynasty can span several hundred years. My understanding is this:

1. Do not include tributaries (eg. thailand was never included)

2. Snapshot of the biggest area during that dynasty which were controlled directly from the central government.

3. Minimum period of rule ? Maybe more than one year or ten years ?

Edited by xng, 23 February 2006 - 09:16 PM.

[xng]

Tang 820 AD

Tang dynasty did not conquer over the whole of manchuria (ie. inner and outer manchuria) so this map is inaccurate.

More accurate maps of each of the dynasties

http://www.chinahigh...cient_china.htm

Edited by xng, 23 February 2006 - 09:57 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Tang dynasty rule over Mongolia and Siberia? Those last three maps are ridiculously stretched. And those are just the obvious inaccuracies.

Yes, those maps of the Tang and Ming are grossly over-exaggerrated. The last map is not of the Qing, though. I think it's supposed to be the Yuan, and is also wildly inaccurate (I think).

yes, those latest sets of maps are very far stretched.. had they really extended that far, they would've encountered the Sakhalar (the largest nomadic group in northern Siberia) and some paleo-siberian groups. However by most reports, no Chinese Dynasty had direct contact with them, and vice versa.

No, the Tang map is not far streched at all,(perhaps only a bit regarding precision) the territory of lake Baikal was brought under Tang influence in 647 when the Xue Yan Tuo was crushed and the Tie Lie tribes was zoned into 6 protectorates under the Uighurs. The western territories were brought under Tang control in 659 when Su Ding Fang crushed the Western Turks. But the year given is quite incorrect, the western territory was independent in 665 a.d. Furthermore, the Mohe in Manchuria was pretty much under Tang's sphere of influence by 660. You can check all of these in the Zi Zhi Tong Jia or Tang Shu.

Here is a list of Tang's protectorates in four directions.

North:

In the fourth year of Zhen Guan(630) after the Tang destroyed the Eastern Tu Jue empire, all tribes south of the Gobi up to the old Turkish capital of Otugen was subjugated. Mongolia was zoned into Youzhou in the east and Lingzhou in the west and into four Dudu and six Zhou, from which left-terrtiory incorporated into Dingxiang and right-territory to Yunzhong Dudu Fu. Those north of the Gobi belonged to the tiele confederation led by the Xue Yan Tuo tribes although they submitted to the Tang as early as as the 2nd year of Zhen Guan (627) they were independent. In the 20th year of Zhen Guan (646), the Xue Yan Tuo invaded Tang territory taking advantage of the Korean campaign with a recorded number of 200,000 troops. The north was lightly defended, but never the less, the Xue Yang Tuo was crushed by Li Shi Qi's border army consisting of 60,000 Tang troop and 5000 TuJue auxiliaries. The Xue Yan Tuo retreated north but faced a blizzard that took away 9/10 of their troops, following this disaster the Uighur rebelled, and asked for Tang aid. In the following year, the Tang army crossed the Gobi and joined the Uighurs and overthrew the Xue Yan Tuo. The north of the Gobi up to Lake baikal now became part of the Tang territory as well. In that year Tai Zong set up the An Bei (pacified north) Du Hu Fu (protectorate) north of the Gobi and rezoned the Tie Le (including Uighurs) into 6 Du du fu and 7 prefectures. Later that year, he set up the Yen Lang Du Hu Fu (protectorate) up to the Angara river north west of Lake Baikal, (in 663 it will be moved back into Uighur territory) this marks the furthest northern extent of Tang. In 663, the Chang Yu Du Hu Fu is set up for the tribes south of Gobi. In 679, Chang Yu protectorate would rebel but crushed. Yet in 682, the Tu Jue rebels in north of the Gobi and Tang withdrew from An Bei, Chan Yu and the An Bei (Pacified North) protectorate became one and would remain until the end of Wu Zhao's reign.



West:


In the west, the Western Tujue during the reign of She Gui Kaghan, their territory streched from Jade gate in the east to the Aral sea in the west, while the south covered present day northern Afghanistan. In the 14th year of Zheng guan (640) Tang occupied the kingdom of Gao Cang(present day Turfan)and created the An Xi(pacified west) protectorate. Slowly, it occupied, the rest of the Tarim and tribes of the Western Tujue, in 658 the rest of the Tujue khanate was occupied. The whole of the western Tujue khanate was zoned into protectorates. From Tien Mountain to the Aral Sea, the territory is zoned into Kung ling and Meng Chi protectorate and subdivided into over a dozen Du du fu and zhou. All these protectorate are under the supervision of the protector general of the An Xi protectorate. In 661, Tang further zoned the territories south of the Oxus and the 16 kingdoms of the tarim basin reaching the border of Persia. This was the height of Tang's eastern expansion. One of the protectorate of the Pacified West was ruled by the last prince of Persia, Peroz who escaped in 651 for the Tang after the arabs destroyed the Sassanid empire. He will keep on fighting the Arabs until the 670s when he is again forced to leave by invading arabs and go back to China. While in 665, the western turkish tribes rebelled and in 670, Tubo(tibet) attacked the Tarim and Tang retreated back to Turfan, but the protectorate of Kung ling and Meng Chi was still loyal to Tang well into the 7th century.

Here is a list of major Tang protectorates of the west:

In Chinese history the territories of present Day Russian Turkestan were called Nine kingdoms of Zhao Wu.

These nine kingdoms are Samarqand, Boukhara,
Kesh, Khebud,¨Koshana
Maimargh, Khwaresm, Betik.

1. Tashkent. Also known as Shi Guo 石国 (rock kingdom) in Chinese was made into the Da Wan prefecture (du du fu) in 658 A.D.

2. Samarkand, called Kang Guo 康国 was made into Kang Ju Du Du Fu

3. Maimargh, known as Mi Guo 米国, or rice kingdom was made into Li Nan prefecture

4. Koshana, known as He Guo 何国 was made into Xiang Zhou in 641 A.D.

5. Bukhara also known as An Guo 安国 was made into An Xi Zhou


In addition, beyond the nine kingdoms of Zhao Wu there was


1. Zhi Ba Zhou prefecture in present day in Tajikistan.

2. Tien Ma Du Du Fu also in Tajikistan.

3. Ban Zhou Du Du Fu in Uzbekistan


4. Gao Fu Zhou Du du Fu also known as Ferghana.


5. Wang Tin Zhou prefecture southwest Tajikistan


6. Gu Mo Du prefecture in Uzbekistan

7. Yue Zhi prefecture in Northern Afghanistan


8. Da Han(great Khan) prefecture


9. Qi Sha Zhou prefecture in northwestern Afghanistan


10. Xiu Xian prefecture in present day Kabul, capital of Afghanistan.


11. Xie Feng prefecture in central Afghanistan

12. Tiao Zhi prefecture, southern Afghanistan


13. BoSi (Persia) prefecture, its not in Iran but in Turkmenistan, because the Sassanian kingdom is destroyed by the Arabs, the last prince, Peroz escaped to Tang and was enfeoffed this territory as king of the new Sassanid Persia. Although this kingdom was abandoned in the 674 from new arab agrression. Tang army escorted Peroz back in 679 a.d.


East:

In the North East, in 627, Kitan of Manchuria submit to Tang, and in 648, Tang set created Song Mo protectorate over the kitans. While created the Yao Le protectorate over the Xi tribes. In 692, Tang also created the Wei Shi protectorate over the Wei Shi nomads in Northern Manchuria.
All of them was under the supervision of the An Dong(Pacified East). In 660 Tang destroys kingdom of Paikche and in 668 destroys Koguryo, set up Gao Li protectorate and BoHai prefecture. These would become independent in 698 and Kitans will rebel in 696 but resubmit to Tang in 714 and rezoned their teritory to Tang protectorate. While BoHai would be again made into Tang prefecture in 713 A.D. Further west, the Tagn created the Black water Mohe prefecture on the Amur river right after setting up prefecture over BoHai.


South:

Tang's empire in the South is the smallest, but in 679 Tang set up An Nan (Pacified South over Yunnan and Vietnam.) In Yunnan, Tang defeated the Zheng river tribes and the 6 Zhao was zoned into numerous prefectures. In 618 A.D. Tang defeated the Xie Long Yu, chieftain of the Zang Ke Man 2 years later he was made the governor of the Zang Zhou, in A.D.629 Xie Yuan Shen of the Dong Xie Man was made into Ying Zhou. In the same year Chief Zhao Mo of Nan Zhao Man yielded his allegience and was made into Ming Zhou. In 737 the kingdom of NanZhao united the other six Zhao under Tang supervision and support and hence Yunnan became the Nan Zhao kingdom which remained subjected to Tang until 750 A.D.

Edited by warhead, 24 February 2006 - 02:22 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

@ bayonet.
all maps are fake.. Qing was never a ruller in Kazachstan.. they have make some assaults, or "forced trade" but in winter all qing soldiers were back in china.. it give noone proofs that this empire do rule this territories.. "ambushed and destroy a nomads" dont mean "you rulle" in this country..

Wrong, in 1881, Russia agreed to a treaty with the Qing in which it returned Ili to China but keeping a small strip of land which up to lake balkash and Russia received 9 million rubles to pay for the cost of the occupation. Which mean that Qing power did extend into Kazakstan. In 1858 Russia send to BeiJing a statement proposing that the Amur and Ussuri rivers should constitute the boundary between Russia and China. This was a Russian advance, which the Qing obviously rejected. The Qing sent the assistant military governor, Chi-la-Ming-A, to Muraviev discussing the border matter. Muraviev proposed the signature of a new treaty fixing the Amur and Ussuri rivers as the common boundary between the two states. The Qing rejected the proposal, whereupon Muraviev withdrew from the conference in feigned anger, and the Russians used gunboats to display their military on the Amur. The following day the Qing ambassador sent a representative resume negotiations. Muraviev consented and on May 28, 1858, the two sides signed the Treaty of Aigun which gave Russia control of the left bank of the Amur River and also gave the Russians the right of trade and navigation on the Sungari - a Chinese inland river. As for the region east of the Ussuri, it would remain under joint dominion of the two countries pending future determination of the common frontier in that region. Luck was again on Russia’s side when the Anglo-French alliance occupied BeiJing in 1860. Russia took the opportunity to declare to BeiJing that Russia is a possible ally against the British and BeiJin agreed to sign the Treaty of Peking with Russia which gave it the right bank of the Ussuri and granted Russian vessels navigating rights. So both the second and first map is correct, the third map is off.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Sorry, my bad. If it's Yuan, I suppose it is not too far off the mark. But the others definitely are.

And I forget to add, the Yuan in Sakhalin?

No, its the Yuan that is in fact the most distorted, the map shows Yuan in the northern rim of the arctic! The taiga area north of lake Baikal has never been part of the empire of any dynasty or empire. Yuan did not strech any further north than the Tang, because both became the khaghan of the entire upper steppe.

These maps are an embarassment.

lol, it does have political purpose in the case of Ming and Yuan(yet as Karl said, the degree of influence in what was a centric driven hierarchical structure was more relevant in measuring power projection than our modern concept of boundary) but these maps are far better drawn. They are newer and are highly professional, the other maps lack precision, they are not as professionally consulted(only the PRC has the time effort to do something like this I suppose), the map for Han for example is so precise that it even shows a bent of the ordos as not part of the Han dynasty. That was only recorded in a section of the Han Shu in which the Han envoy failed to convince the xiongnu to give up that stretch of land. None of the western maps are close to that precision.

Tang dynasty did not conquer over the whole of manchuria (ie. inner and outer manchuria) so this map is inaccurate.

More accurate maps of each of the dynasties

No, they are far from "more accurate". These maps are amatuer level drawings. On the other hand, these PRC maps are the most detailed map in existence as of now.
Tang did control all of Manchuria, but probably not that far into the Ussuri territory(again its all up to interpretation)

The Khitans and Xi in eastern Manchuria was finally pacified after countless rebellions by 740 A.D. after the Khitan rebel Ke Tu Gan was killed and Tang reestablished their teritory into the Song Mo protectorate. According to Jiu Tang Shu Di Li Zhi as well as Xin Tang Shu, chapter 43 De Li Zhi. There was 22 prefectures in Yin Zhou and Ling Zhou. There are 10 prefectures for Khitans, 4 prefecture for the Xi tribes, Two prefectures for the Tujue in that area, one prefecture for Hu, one prefecture for Hai Wai Xin Luo. By the sixth year of Kai Yuan(718 A.D.) the Song Mo prefecture was set up ove the Khitan and Xi. While BoHai would be again made into Tang prefecture in 713 A.D. The Shi Wei was long made into a Tang protectorate in the late 7th century by Wu Ze Tian. During Xuan Zong's time, there was the prefecture of Yan Zhou set up over the Li Mo Mo He, in present day west of Liao Ning, in the first year of Tian Bao(712) it became Gui De Jun. He also created Zheng Zhou and Yi Bing Zhou for the rest of the Mohe. In the 13th year of Kai Yuan(725), Tang set up the Black water Mohe prefecture on the Amur river(present day ussuri region).

Edited by warhead, 24 February 2006 - 02:23 PM.

[Kediren]

Wrong, in 1881, Russia agreed to a treaty with the Qing in which it returned Ili to China but keeping a small strip of land which up to lake balkash and Russia received 9 million rubles to pay for the cost of the occupation. Which mean that Qing power did extend into Kazakstan. In 1858 Russia send to BeiJing a statement proposing that the Amur and Ussuri rivers should constitute the boundary between Russia and China.

sorry but your info is not real prove.. do you have excatly how do qing controle this territories? other infos are about qing and russian relationchips in siberia..(kasachstan = / = siberia) and not between qing and kasakh queen family in kasachstan..

[Karakhan]

No, the Tang map is not far streched at all,(perhaps only a bit regarding precision) the territory of lake Baikal was brought under Tang influence in 647 when the Xue Yan Tuo was crushed and the Tie Lie tribes was zoned into 6 protectorates under the Uighurs. The western territories were brought under Tang control in 659 when Su Ding Fang crushed the Western Turks. But the year given is quite incorrect, the western territory was independent in 665 a.d. Furthermore, the Mohe in Manchuria was pretty much under Tang's sphere of influence by 660. You can check all of these in the Zi Zhi Tong Jia or Tang Shu.

actually I was referring to the Ming and Yuan map.. the Yuan one in particular

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

sorry but your info is not real prove.. do you have excatly how do qing controle this territories? other infos are about qing and russian relationchips in siberia..(kasachstan = / = siberia) and not between qing and kasakh queen family in kasachstan

Sorry, but I'm afraid my info is perfectly correct. Stop arguing over something that you have no historical competence about. Qing garrisons reached the Ili, and kept an watchful eye over the whole territory up to Balkash by 1759. Muslim tribes in Xing Jiang rebelled against the Qing in 1863. These Muslims were led by Yakub Beg, who established an independent government at Kashgar and killed the local Chinese. The Russian government, which controlled the adjacent territory, feared the revolt would spread to their lands and with this pretext sent Russian troops to occupy the northern areas of Xing Jiang around Kuldja on the Ili River in 1871. The following year the Russians concluded a commercial treaty with Yakub Beg and recognized his sovereignty. The Qing never gave up on their “new dominion” and ordered General Zuo Zong Tang to retake Xing Jiang. Zuo Zong Tang severely defeated Yakub Beg, who died later and by 1877, the Muslims again acknowledged Chinese sovereignty. The Qing demanded Russia to return the Ili region back to China since it was originally Chinese territory.
My sources include Houston, Davison Russia and China From the Huns to Mao Tse Tung, (London: Trinity Press, 1960), and Pavlovsky, Michel Chinese Russian Relations, (New York: Philosophical Library, 1949).

Edited by warhead, 24 February 2006 - 04:20 PM.

[Kediren]

Qing garrisons reached the Ili, and kept an watchful eye over the whole territory up to Balkash by 1759. My sources include Houston, Davison Russia and China From the Huns to Mao Tse Tung, (London: Trinity Press, 1960), and Pavlovsky, Michel Chinese Russian Relations, (New York: Philosophical Library, 1949).

sorry.. but a "reach" dont mean "a rule about".. and if russain empire do pay money for this territories then it dont mean that they have buy this territories.. it mean only that they have buy a "okey" from qing empire that this empire dont claim on this territories..

and one more.. if i do question about, then i want to know about and not that i want make my own fantasys about..

and now: do you have something about that a qing do have ruled this area? (documents about taxes, courts, garrisons, infos about a qing governer in this area)..

I have learn only, that a qing soldier have massacre many unarmed kasch nomads and their families and do disappeared back with kasach horses and sheeps in to chinese teritorries behind tianchan..

(btw. one thing why many modern kasach in west area of tianchan dont like chinese merchants..)


_

Edited by Kediren, 24 February 2006 - 06:05 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

sorry.. but a "reach" dont mean "a rule about".. and if russain empire do pay money for this territories then it dont mean that they have buy this territories.. it mean only that they have buy a "okey" from qing empire that this empire dont claim on this territories..

No, I'm sorry, but why don't you just quit this pointless argument that you've already lost. They bought it, its part of Qing territory.
In the absense of meaningful competition, vassalage = full fledged control.

[Kediren]

that is it.. i was very long time in kasachstan and have read many about a history of this land. (my high skool was near almaty) (btw. a historian museum in almaty is very good for historic research in this area) but i have see nothig about qing dynasty in this area.. Usebeck, skiffs, mongolian artefacts? yes.. chines-silk-road and turk artefacts? absolutly.. but nothing about a qing "rule" in this territory..

i have hear that some kasach clans behind tianchan were a Vassals of Qing or do have trade with this country.. no problem..

but i have hear nothing about that a qing do have ruled in west teritorries(side) of tianchan..

Edited by Kediren, 24 February 2006 - 07:10 PM.

[xng]

It seems that inner and outer manchuria was part of the Ming dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia....Ming-China1.jpg

Edited by xng, 26 February 2006 - 12:26 AM.

[jiangji]

It seems that inner and outer manchuria was part of the Ming dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia....Ming-China1.jpg

The map is exaggerated. The Ming Empire never extend that far into siberia even under Yongle reign. Furthermore, the Ming had no influence or control over the Tibet.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

that is it.. i was very long time in kasachstan and have read many about a history of this land. (my high skool was near almaty) (btw. a historian museum in almaty is very good for historic research in this area) but i have see nothig about qing dynasty in this area.. Usebeck, skiffs, mongolian artefacts? yes.. chines-silk-road and turk artefacts? absolutly.. but nothing about a qing "rule" in this territory..

i have hear that some kasach clans behind tianchan were a Vassals of Qing or do have trade with this country.. no problem..

but i have hear nothing about that a qing do have ruled in west teritorries(side) of tianchan..

There was no Khazakhstan back then. Only three separate khanates in Russian Turkestan; Khiva, Khokand and Bukhara, and the territory west of Tian shan up to Balkash was not under the control any of the three, they were Qing vassals, patrolled by Qing troops. Internationally recognized as Qing territory. Qing sent troops all the way to lake Balkash to escort back the fleeing Torgots from Russia.

Edited by warhead, 26 February 2006 - 04:55 PM.