125 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

Despite the shift, member of the same family will continue to retain their family name Xin “姓” while adopt another word to differentiate from other branches. This is know as Shi “氏”. In a family, there can always be one Xin “姓” while having many different Shi“氏”.

The word "Shi 氏" actually means 'clan'. It's the next organisation after family. Essentially, a "Shi" (clan) is a group/organisation consisting of families having the same surname/family name (Xin 姓)

[norenxaq]

[quote name='Type98G' date='Aug 24 2005, 05:14 AM']
Chinese surname history: Zhuge

In the Xia Dynasty the king of state Ge was conferred the title count and called Count Ge. Count Ge was the offspring of the ancient emperor Getian. After Count Ge's state was destroyed some of its people migrated to the southwest of Zhucheng (Zhu city), then to Yangdu in Shandong. To distinguish themselves from the local Zhu-surnamed people the latecomers put the character Zhu in front of Ge to form the compound surname Zhuge.


offspring? as in son? who was Getian?

[somechineseperson]

I wonder why there are no information on the historic origin of popular chinese surname such as Chen 陈, Lin 林, Zhang 张 ...

Anyway, chinese dynasties are essentially a period of time where China was ruled by a 'ruling family' having a particular surname.

Below list the surnames of the ruling families for each dynasty:

Xia, Shang dynasties  - no surnames, rulers follow dynasty name

Zhou dynasty - "Ji 姬" surname

Qin dynasty  - "Ying 赢" surname

Han dynasty  - "Liu 刘" surname

3 kingdoms : Wei  - "Cao 曹" surname
                    Shu - "Liu 刘" surname
                    Wu - "Wu 吴" surname

Western/Eastern Jin dynasty - "Sima 司马" surname

Age of fragmentation - refer to
http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=384

Sui dynasty - "Yang 杨" surname

Tang dynasty - "Li 李" surname

5 dynasties and 10 kingdoms - refer to
http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=384

Song dynasty - "Zhao 赵" surname

Liao dynasty - "Yelu 耶律" surname

Western Xia dynasty - "Li 李" surname

Jin dynasty - "Wanyan 完颜" surname

Yuan dynasty - Mongol surnames not sure

Ming dynasty - "Zhu 朱" surname

Qing dynasty -  "Aisin Gioro 爱新觉罗"

Xia, Shang dynasties - no surnames, rulers follow dynasty name

That's not true. According to the Historical Records, the Shang royal family belonged to the Zi (子) clan and the Xia royal family belonged to the Ni (拟) clan. The royal clans of the Three Dynasties, Ni, Zi and Ji, were all direct descendants of the Yellow Emperor. Confucius himself was a descendant of the Shang Dynasty royal family.

[Too hi Fat]

This is all very interesting ...essentially the current chinese surnames are clan names.


What would be more interesting is ...

1. When did the current "clan" name system started ?
2. What was the pre-clan name surnames like (if there is any) ?
3. What are those pre-clan name surnames ?
4. Were chinese pre-clan names (if they do existed) similar to the European/Japanese system ... or are they something else all together different?

It is obvious that the current clan name system goes a LONG LONG way back to 500bc-600bc or earlier. But it would be interesting to know.


Example of European surnames and possible meaning (I can only give european ones as I am not 100% familiar with Japanese names) :

Farmer - The family were probably farmers
Carpenter - Somewhere in the line was a carpenter
Taylor - Somewhere there are Tailors
Smith - BlackSmith
Reed - Someone had red hair
Cutter - Tree cutter ?
Couric - "Short/Small" in france (E.g Katie Couric the TV hostest midget lady means Katie "Short" ... she explained it one time on TV and please don't ask why I remember it)

So ... James Farmer means James the farmer (as oppose to James the Tailor who is James Taylor or James the Red who is James Reed)

Or Japanese (only know 1)

Takamura - Mountain Fields (I think this is correct)
So, someone call Yukinari Takamura means Yukinari from mountain fields

[norenxaq]

Confucius himself was a descendant of the Shang Dynasty royal family.


what was his lineage from the Shang?

is it considered accurrate?

[Lin Duanwen]

Confucius himself was a descendant of the Shang Dynasty royal family.
what was his lineage from the Shang?

is it considered accurrate?

Confucius was a descendant of Duke of Song. The surname for Duke of Song was Zi. Zi was also the surname of the Shang Dynasty royal family. You can also see the character 'Kong', there is a 'Zi' beside it. This means that the surname 'Kong' actually came out from the surname 'Zi'.

[somechineseperson]

Confucius was a descendant of Duke of Song. The surname for Duke of Song was Zi. Zi was also the surname of the Shang Dynasty royal family. You can also see the character 'Kong', there is a 'Zi' beside it. This means that the surname 'Kong' actually came out from the surname 'Zi'.

After King Wu of Zhou overthrew the Shang Dynasty, the Shang royal clan was allowed to create the state of Song in order to sustain the ritual offerings to the great ancestral kings of the Shang Dynasty. (Especially King Tang, who founded the Shang Dynasty and was also vernerated by the Zhou kings)

Edited by somechineseperson, 19 September 2005 - 04:09 PM.

[Zeng Xiu Wei]

This is all very interesting ...essentially the current chinese surnames are clan names.
What would be more interesting is ...

1. When did the current "clan" name system started ?
2. What was the pre-clan name surnames like (if there is any) ?
3. What are those pre-clan name surnames ?
4. Were chinese pre-clan names (if they do existed) similar to the European/Japanese system ... or are they something else all together different?

It is obvious that the current clan name system goes a LONG LONG way back to 500bc-600bc or earlier. But it would be interesting to know.
Example of European surnames and possible meaning (I can only give european ones as I am not 100% familiar with Japanese names) :

Farmer - The family were probably farmers
Carpenter - Somewhere in the line was a carpenter
Taylor - Somewhere there are Tailors
Smith - BlackSmith
Reed - Someone had red hair
Cutter - Tree cutter ?
Couric - "Short/Small" in france (E.g Katie Couric the TV hostest midget lady means Katie "Short" ... she explained it one time on TV and please don't ask why I remember it)

So ... James Farmer means James the farmer (as oppose to James the Tailor who is James Taylor or James the Red who is James Reed)

Or Japanese (only know 1)

Takamura - Mountain Fields (I think this is correct)
So, someone call Yukinari Takamura means Yukinari from mountain fields

[b]姓氏的来源

姓与氏来源于5000年前原始时代氏族与部落用的图腾物.随着发展,才形成今日的姓氏.

姓氏在最早期,其“姓”与“氏”有着不同的意义.“姓”如字面所示,是指女人生的子女,原义是同一个母亲所生的子女就是同姓.当时的姓如"姬","姒"等都有个女字边.但随社会由母系发展成父系社会,姓则由随母姓转为随父亲.由于同一祖先的子孙繁衍增多,而开始分散居各处后.各个分支的子孙除了会保留姓以外,另外还往往以生地、居住地、封國、封地、人名、爵位、官職为自己取一个称号作为标志,这就是“氏”.因此在一个家族中姓是永恒的,而氏却会时常变化.

姓氏在春秋战国,宗法制度瓦解时,也开始了其根本的变革.这时氏开始取代了原有的姓.许多目前的姓氏便是由当时流传至今.

西汉时期,姓和氏的区别分野已经微乎其微.许多人当时便把姓氏混而为一,成为今日我们所认识的姓氏.

据统计,中国前后曾出现过将近12000个姓氏，但目前仍然存在的姓氏，大约只剩3000个左右.

姓氏在古代除了用来确认家原与贵贱,同时也用来区别婚姻.同姓不能通婚的传统一直到现代,还被许多人所主重.

If someone can please translate that. My English is not good enought put that in English.

Edited by Zeng Xiu Wei, 20 September 2005 - 01:45 AM.

[Too hi Fat]

[b]姓氏的来源

姓与氏来源于5000年前原始时代氏族与部落用的图腾物.随着发展,才形成今日的姓氏.

姓氏在最早期,其“姓”与“氏”有着不同的意义.“姓”如字面所示,是指女人生的子女,原义是同一个母亲所生的子女就是同姓.当时的姓如"姬","姒"等都有个女字边.但随社会由母系发展成父系社会,姓则由随母姓转为随父亲.由于同一祖先的子孙繁衍增多,而开始分散居各处后.各个分支的子孙除了会保留姓以外,另外还往往以生地、居住地、封國、封地、人名、爵位、官職为自己取一个称号作为标志,这就是“氏”.因此在一个家族中姓是永恒的,而氏却会时常变化.

姓氏在春秋战国,宗法制度瓦解时,也开始了其根本的变革.这时氏开始取代了原有的姓.许多目前的姓氏便是由当时流传至今.

西汉时期,姓和氏的区别分野已经微乎其微.许多人当时便把姓氏混而为一,成为今日我们所认识的姓氏.

据统计,中国前后曾出现过将近12000个姓氏，但目前仍然存在的姓氏，大约只剩3000个左右.

姓氏在古代除了用来确认家原与贵贱,同时也用来区别婚姻.同姓不能通婚的传统一直到现代,还被许多人所主重.

If someone can please translate that. My English is not good enought put that in English.

Someone please translate it ... I can only understand about 1/3 of what is written.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Alright .. let me translate..

姓氏的来源

Origin of Surname

姓与氏来源于5000年前原始时代氏族与部落用的图腾物.随着发展,才形成今日的姓氏.

"Xing 姓" and "Shi 氏 " originated from the development of clansmanship and tribal federation of ancient times. In the past, these two terms were different, "Xing" was the main group while "Shi" was the subsidiary group, but today, both terms mean 'Surname or Family Name'.

姓氏在最早期,其“姓”与“氏”有着不同的意义.“姓”如字面所示,是指女人生的子女,原义是同一个母亲所生的子女就是同姓.当时的姓如"姬","姒"等都有个女字边.但随社会由母系发展成父系社会,姓则由随母姓转为随父亲.由于同一祖先的子孙繁衍增多,而开始分散居各处后.各个分支的子孙除了会保留姓以外,另外还往往以生地、居住地、封國、封地、人名、爵位、官職为自己取一个称号作为标志,这就是“氏”.因此在一个家族中姓是永恒的,而氏却会时常变化.

At its earliest, "Xing" and "Shi" had different meaning. If you look at the character of "Xing 姓", it actually means the 'offspring of a woman', which implies that any offspring given birth by a mother will have the same surname. At that time, surname like 姬, 姒 all has the basic character 女 (Nu - female) on the left, but as the society developed from a matriachy to patrioachy society, the "Xing" was changed to follow that of father. Because of the fact that many descendents from the same 'surname family' developed and tended to live apart from each other, in different lands, with different conferred titled etc, this gradually developed into a 'shi". Thus in a family, "Xing"always stayed the same and does not change, while 'shi' (clan) always changes.

姓氏在春秋战国,宗法制度瓦解时,也开始了其根本的变革.这时氏开始取代了原有的姓.许多目前的姓氏便是由当时流传至今.

During the Spring/Autumn and Warring States period, as the clanship-feudal system disintegrated, the "Xing" and "Shi" had big changes. At this time, "Shi" (clan) started to replace the pre-existing "Xing". Today's surname actually originated from that time.

西汉时期,姓和氏的区别分野已经微乎其微.许多人当时便把姓氏混而为一,成为今日我们所认识的姓氏.

During western han period, the difference between "Xing" and "Shi" was very minimal. Many people mixed these two terms together as one, and became one compound word "Xing Shi 姓氏" (Surname) as known today.

据统计,中国前后曾出现过将近12000个姓氏，但目前仍然存在的姓氏，大约只剩3000个左右.

According to statistics, China had in the past almost 12,000 surnames, but today, only 3000 surnames survived.

姓氏在古代除了用来确认家原与贵贱,同时也用来区别婚姻.同姓不能通婚的传统一直到现代,还被许多人所主重.

In ancient times, surname was not only used to verify family origin and determine "class level", it was also used in marriage: those having the same surname cannot marry one another, this tradition still beholds till today.

[Too hi Fat]

Basically, If I understand it correctly ...

The original "surnames" were very similar to the Japanese-European style surnames. Then it slowly changed to the clan names at a later date (About the time of the warring states era).

So in a sick sad weird bazaaro way, Japanese kept with the original pre-clan name system while China changed into a clan based system.

There's a story going around that states that the Japanese originated from the Chinese mainland and their entire "group" was removed/exiled after one of the Emporers got peaved at them ... old grandma stories ...

If this is true and it did happened, that means that the Japanese may be the keepers of Chinese culture from the early early days. Unless of course there have been major changes since then. Its known that in the old days, Japan wanted to emulate China so it may have been possible that due to the isolation from the main land ... they kept the original cultures alive.

Kinda like some of the black slaves (decendents too) that escaped from the plantations in Brazil to set up thier own towns in the Jungles. They kept thier "old ways" alive so well that today, if you want to see real old Ivorian Coast culture ... you go to Brazil ... not Ivory coast couse the culture in Ivory coast in africa has lost vast majority of thier "old ways". While the backwater towns in Brazil manage to hang on to them due to thier isolationist ways (Trying to avoid being recaptured into slavery again).

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Does this mean that surnames names like "Chin-Lan" is actually a very ancient form of chinese surname ? or is that something different all together ?