76 replies to this topic

[somechineseperson]

I'm not so sure about that. The statistics show otherwise, early Three kingdom period's destruction caused a decline in population by over 50%. While the Wei population census show 32 million people. All together its estimated that all of China during the height of the Age of fragmentation had around 52 million men. An incerase from the 3 kingdom period, which probably had no more than 30 million.

One cannot really accurately measure the level of destruction caused by warfare using the population censors. The population censors are not reliable. Just because a lot of people were not registered on the censors does not mean they were all killed by war. I hope you are not suggesting 50% of the entire population of China were killed as a result of warfare during the Three Kingdoms Period.

There are very few historical records of large scale massacres during the Three Kingdoms Period, but plenty of records for such brutal events during the Age of Fragmentation. Many died when the Xiongnu first sacked Chang'an and Luoyang, for example.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

One cannot really accurately measure the level of destruction caused by warfare using the population censors. The population censors are not reliable. Just because a lot of people were not registered on the censors does not mean they were all killed by war. I hope you are not suggesting 50% of the entire population of China were killed as a result of warfare during the Three Kingdoms Period.

There are very few historical records of large scale massacres during the Three Kingdoms Period, but plenty of records for such brutal events during the Age of Fragmentation. Many died when the Xiongnu first sacked Chang'an and Luoyang, for example.

Actually 50% itself is a demographic estimation, the census shows even greater decline, by over 80%. There are plenty of records of destruction in the period immedieately before the 3 kingdom period, and their descriptions are far more destructive, the yellow turban are rampaging everywhere, and the capital also changed hands. Besides the capital alone contain but a small fraction of the population, the whole scale of end of Han destruction is whole pheasant based.

There really isn't much of a prove that the AOF period is greatly desctructive, in fact many rulers promoted growth and agriculture, its only in brief periods of violent invasion and ursurpation(including the Ran Wei) that the contry is in chaos, these are still nothng comparable to the yellow turban rebellion in scale. At least the south and parts of north were not affected as much.

[lobster]

i see ...most of the discussion on this topic only covers the North of China. I am interested about the South.

Get lost and stop trolling if you aren't interested, my dear fellow CHFer.

[Shogun 144]

Hey everyone,


I just started delving into the AOF, mighty interesting so far.... But I would to ask if some one can provide me with a outline of the AOF and, if this is not to much to ask, a list of the major players in that age?

[Yun]

But I would to ask if some one can provide me with a outline of the AOF and, if this is not to much to ask, a list of the major players in that age?

Good outlines of the different parts of the period can be found here:
http://www.chinaknow...vision/jin.html
http://www.chinaknow.../shiliuguo.html
http://www.chinaknow...on/nanchao.html
http://www.chinaknow...ion/beiwei.html

We also have pinned threads with lists of the rulers of the 16 Kingdoms (and those not included in the 16) and Northern and Southern Dynasties.

[Shogun 144]

Very interesting indeed Yun, very interesting.

Thank you for the information, it was very fufilling for me.


Shogun 144

[Mahlertitan]

wei is in the north, go see the wikipedia linK:
http://en.wikipedia..../Three_kingdoms

[James]

Is there any kingdom with the Cao family name still around?

[Yun]

"Still around" as in "still around in the Age of Fragmentation"?

If you mean ruled by the Cao family, then no. But if you're talking about people with that family name, there were plenty in various kingdoms. In fact, Cao was also a common 'Chinese' family name adopted for convenience by Xiongnu and Sogdian people living in China during the Age of Fragmentation.

[Shogun 144]

Just looking here, James' question actually brings up something I have always wondered about. What was the fate of the Cao clan after Sima Yan deposed them in 265? I mean I know that Jin Wudi made Cao Huan the Duke of Chengliu, even treated him extremely well, but what exactly to the family? Were they wiped out during the turmoil of the Rebellion of the Eight Princes and subsequent Wu Hu uprisings or what?

[Yun]

Many Cao aristocrats were killed by the Sima in the period between Sima Yi's coup and the usurpation by Sima Yan. But the clan itself survived.

We have records in the Jin Shu of two Cao clan members who were prominent in the Western Jin and Eastern Jin dynasties:

Cao Ju 曹据, grandson of Cao Zhao 曹肇 (General of Imperial Guards under the Wei). He served in high positions under Sima Jiong 冏 and Sima Yi 乂 during the War of the Princes, and then (after a few years in mourning for his deceased mother) became Prefect of Xiangcheng 襄城 in 306, suppressing the rebels and bandits there within months. In 308, Sima Jian 简 the Prince of Gaomi 高密, who was garrisoning Xiangyang 襄阳, appointed him as Adjutant and then tasked him with suppressing a local rebel group. But the other officer assigned to provide reinforcements for Cao Ju deliberately stayed out of the fight, and Cao was overwhelmed and killed by the rebels. Such was Cao Ju's reputation as a just and benevolent official that former subordinates and civilians flocked to his funeral and wailed for him as if for a parent.

Cao Pi 曹毗, great-grandson of Cao Xiu 曹休. A gifted poet and writer who served the Eastern Jin court in various positions, and was known for trying to reconcile the ideals of Daoism and Confucianism in his writings - a key theme of Wei-Jin xuanxue philosophy.

[Charlotte]

What I call the Age of Fragmentation is also known in English as the Period of Disunion, Era of Disunity, Age of Division, etc. In Chinese it is also known as the Six Dynasties (after the southern dynasties of Wu, Eastern Jin, Liu-Song, Southern Qi, Liang, and Chen) and the Wei-Jin-Nanbeichao (Wei, Jin, and Southern and Northern Dynasties). The confusing proliferation of terms just shows how little unity there is even in academic studies of this period, easily the most neglected and underestimated period in Chinese history.

The Three Kingdoms is certainly one of the most "described" eras of Chinese history, but it's also one of the most distorted because most people only have a romantic image of it derived from the novel. I, too, got interested in Chinese history through reading the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms", but several years later I read about the history of the Age of Fragmentation and was struck by how much more diverse and fascinating it was.

The Romance ends rather anti-climactically with the Western Jin reunification, and people tend to think that's the end of all the fighting. But just 20 years later, China was broken up again, and wouldn't be reunited for close to 300 years (compared to about 100 for the Three Kingdoms period). This time, non-Han races would join in the fray (founding more than 10 states of their own), military tactics would evolve significantly, and there would be immense suffering and bloodshed. But even most Chinese haven't much of an impression of this period because it's too grim and complex, there are no real heroes, and there isn't a great novel written about it. The idealised picture of warfare in the Romance is more accessible, and ultimately more palatable. But if you want to really understand what power and war can do to human beings, you can't be ignorant of the Age of Fragmentation.

This thread is for questions about anything that happened in China between 280 (the end of the Three Kingdoms period) and 589 (the end of the Age of Fragmentation).

When I first read history, I never choose " Three Kingdoms" as my choice because I find it so complicated. I know it's inevitable, but I always dislike fighting. It's never really in my field of interest but it's interesting to see others analyzing this period of history. Keep it up.

[Edgar Liao]

This is kind of a query directed specifically for Yun but I didn't really know which forum thread to classify this under....


I was thinking about the term 'hanjian' while I was digging up a bit on Wang Jingwei and I suddenly wondered how the historical use and etymology of the term 'Han Jian' correspond or relate to your
your research findings on the issue of the term 'Han' (with reference to your seminar which I attended)?

[Yun]

In answer to your question:

'Han Jian' was originally used by the Qing dynasty to refer to 'Han' people who rebelled against the Qing, rather than to 'Han' people who collaborated with the Qing. One of the ironies of how words change in meaning.