32 replies to this topic

[Ying Zheng]

I know that it has already been mentioned that the Shang dynasty is noted as the first literate society found to date in China, but I think that this fact should be furthered with the inclusion of scapulimancy practices (turtle shell dinvination) and oracle bones, the actual evidences of this writing system. This also furthers what was said about the Shang being even more superstitious than other Chinese civilizations; virtually every aspect of Shang society--at least according to modern scholars--was dictated by the results of these auguries.

A brief description of the practice of Shang scapulimancy:

The shoulder blades were polished to remove any scraps of flesh and to make their surfaces smooth. The shells were sawn at the bridge, separating the plastrons from the carapaces but leaving the bridges attached to the plastrons; apparently notations of origin and batch number were painted on these bridges. Once sawn, these shells were also smoothed. Both shells and bones may have been soaked in some liquid solution to make working them easier.

On the underside of each bone or shell, rows of hollows were worked. These were regularly spaced, worked with bore and chisel; most hollows consisted of two overlapping depressions, one circular with a flat or rounded bottom and the other a groove chiseled with a v-shaped cross-section (like the product of an engraving tool).

When divination was made, heat was applied to this worked underside; cracks appeared on the upper side of the shell; the pattern of these cracks was then interpreted, answering a question posed before the shell was heated. Shells and bones have been found with notations incised on with a knife, listing question and answer, plus a later notation on whether the answer proved itself true.

The cracking on the worked shells formed a regular pattern. At each pit/grove site, a vertical crack appeared along the groove; a second crack appeared along the diameter of the pit, joining the vertical crack at one end, but perpendicular to it. When on shells, these second cracks were usually all aligned toward the central axis of the shell; one shell pictured shows the cracks as a double line of T's (two lines of five T's, one line on each side of the shell, with the long arms pointing to the dividing line between left and right sides of the shell); characters are incised around the crack-marks, and each crack-mark seems to be numbered with slashes: I, II, III, IIII, but the fifth and bottom crack is unnumbered.





- Ying Zheng

[somechineseperson]

I've read that Shang was a bronze culture but Zhou was actually a stone age culture.

Where have you read this? Highly unlikely.

[Indiana Jones]

Shang king's succession is also quite odd.  When the old king dies it is his eldest sibling who will take over the throne.  Both Xia and Zhou dynasty have the eldest son of the king to succed him, and Shang seems to be the odd man out.

Do we know (for certain) what system of succession they used during the Shang Dynasty? I recently read the book "Shang Civilization" by the late K.C. Chang, and in it, Chang presents his hypothesis, based on the names of the kings. The name of each king, and of each wife of a king, ends with one of the ten "celestial stems" ("day-signs"). (Apparently, in ancient times, a "week" that was 10 days long was used, & these were the names of the "days of the week".) Since a couple of these stems are much more common than others, Chang rejects the idea that they're based on day-of-birth or day-of-death. He classifies the stems into 2 groups, one including the stem "Yi" and one including the stem "Ding" ("Ting" in Wade-Giles). (These are the 2 most common stems in the names of Shang kings.) He notices (or it seems to him) that the stems appear in a kind of alternating pattern (alternating between the two groups). When a new king ascends the throne from a different/the next generation, his name contains a stem not from the same group as that of the previous king. But when a king from the same generation ascends the throne, his name will contain a stem from the same group as that of the previous king. (I think this situation is what Koolasuchus is referring to when he states that the king's [next] eldest sibling succeeds him upon his death.) In Chang's view, the 10 stems represent (10) smaller groups within the royal clan, which organized themselves into 2 main factions that shared power in the manner descibed above. Some parts of Chang's theory appeal to me, other parts bother me, and I have my own (alternative) hypothesis/idea/opinion about how Shang royal succession most likely worked...

However, I'd first like to hear from other posters, & hear their thoughts on the subject. (After all, this post is long-winded enough, & I don't want to be just "talking to myself". And perhaps I shouldn't assume that this topic is of interest to other posters. [If isn't, there's really no point in continuing it.]) So after this topic/post gets a few replies, I'll post again, & share my own ideas. If you think this post is either not clear enough or not brief enough, it's because I tried to make this post as brief as possible while making it so that someone who hadn't read the book I referred to could still get something out of it.

[nishishei]

Actually the Shang dynasty is officially divided into two parts.  The period from the 1600-1300 B.C. they are known as the Shang (Prophase).  Then in ca. 1300 B.C. the Shang capital was moved and established at Yin.  The Shang from 1300-1046 B.C. is known as the Shang (Anaphase) or Yin dynasty.

Chronology of Chinese History and Culture - 7000 B.C. to A.D. 2004


Jieming

The term "Shang" 商朝 has only been widely used recently, previously the Chinese referred to the entire Shang dynasty as the Yin Dynasty 殷代 (the Japanese today still use the Yin name to refer the Shang dynasty: 殷 いん "in" ).

[qrasy]

human sacrifices, and their artistic style (on their bronze and jades). There's an eerie similiarity between Shang and South American cultures, like the Mayan.
Was it Shang who had a sun diety? So did the Aztecs :0!

I guess East Asians were the same ancestry as American Indian.
Shang dynasty seems full of 'Aztec Characteristics'. (Taotie etc. seems Aztec) Were the Xia and Zhou also the same?

Mayan dragon

By the way, the picture seems a more "childish" version of Chinese dragon.
Not dragon, but 'feathered serpent'. Quetzalcoatl?

Edited by qrasy, 12 August 2005 - 03:31 AM.

[tongyan]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet but people of Shang were known to be great at doing business.  This is how the term "shangren" (businessperson) came about.

Wait a minute. Are you just making this assumption yourself or is this something that everyone knows except me. I know that one of the meanings of shang is business/commerce but i didn't know shangren came about because of the shang dynasty.

[tongyan]

human sacrifices, and their artistic style (on their bronze and jades). There's an eerie similiarity between Shang and South American cultures, like the Mayan.
Was it Shang who had a sun diety? So did the Aztecs :0!



Zhou dynasty dragon (same artistic style as Shang)

This one looks like a ourobouros broken in half. Seems like many ancient societies had some form of an ourobouros in their art or mythology.

[superquarterback]

I am a little bit confused, according to below mentioned article
Shang defeated Xia via an advanced weaponry : bow.
http://www.uglychine...rg/xiashang.htm
But according to this article, Chinese archery predated Shang :
http://www.atarn.org...ery_bckgrnd.htm

Personally I can imagine that in Xia time or even before Xia that people used bow to hunt animal. Which is right? Or maybe Shang's bow was more advanced to Xia's at time of the fall of Jie, the last king of Xia.

About Shang bow :
http://www.atarn.org...es/thingies.htm

[lifezard]

The irony is that, Yin 殷is never mentioned in the oracle bones, but Shang 商 is.. the people never called themselves Yin.. If we had only know the 'Yin' name of the people we will never have identify them as that in the history books..

The term "Shang" 商朝 has only been widely used recently, previously the Chinese referred to the entire Shang dynasty as the Yin Dynasty 殷代 (the Japanese today still use the Yin name to refer the Shang dynasty: 殷 いん "in" ).

[fcharton]

The irony is that, Yin 殷is never mentioned in the oracle bones, but Shang 商 is.. the people never called themselves Yin.. If we had only know the 'Yin' name of the people we will never have identify them as that in the history books..

On the other hand, Sima Qian calls the dynasty 殷 all through the chapter devoted to it. He uses the word 商 on two occasions, to relate to the ancestor of the dynasty 殷 契 (Yin Xie). At the end of the first chapter, he says

契 為 商 ， 姓 子 氏 Xie established the Shang, and had the clan name Zi.

And in the very beginning of the Yin chapter : it is said that Shun enfiefed Xie in Shang, and granted him the clan name Zi. ( 封 于 商 ， 賜 姓 子 氏 ).

This, of course, must be taken with some prudence: Sima Qian writes a millenium after the end of the Shang dynasty... However, it seems to me that 殷 did not specifically refer to the end of the dynasty back then or its capital.

Francois

Edited by fcharton, 07 May 2006 - 08:16 AM.

[lifezard]

History books stated that the last capital of Shang was Yin and thus Yin being used as an alias for the the dynasty.. the fact is even Shang is actually mentioned as the name of the people's ancestral city"大邑商" and not the name of the nation itself (although there is probably nothng like the concept of a nation we know today)

Yin is generally taken to be the archeaological site at Xiaotun on because of its age and scale although I must stress that the city was never referred to as Yin in the oracle records. Sima Qian used Yin maybe because he realise that there is no uniform way of naming the dynasty or its people even then?

On this other hand, Sima Qian calls the dynasty 殷 all through the chapter devoted to it. He uses the word 商 on two occasions, to relate to the ancestor of the dynasty 殷 契 (Yin Xie). At the end of the first chapter, he says

契 為 商 ， 姓 子 氏 Xie established the Shang, and had the clan name Zi.

And in the very beginning of the Yin chapter : it is said that Shun enfiefed Xie in Shang, and granted him the clan name Zi. ( 封 于 商 ， 賜 姓 子 氏 ).

This, of course, must be taken with some prudence: Sima Qian writes a millenium after the end of the Shang dynasty... However, it seems to me that 殷 did not specifically refer to the end of the dynasty back then or its capital.

Francois

[urofpersia]

Interestingly the Zhanguoce mentions Yin as well right at the start:

顏 率 曰 ： 「 弊 邑 固 竊 為 大王 患之 。 夫 鼎 者 ， 非 效 醋 壺 醬 甀 耳 ， 可 懷 挾 提 挈 以 至齊 者 ； 非 效 鳥 集 烏 飛 ， 兔 興 馬 逝， 灕 然 止 於 齊 者 。 昔 周 之 伐 殷 ， 得 九 鼎 ， 凡一 鼎 而 九 萬 人 輓 之 ， 九 九 八 十 一 萬 人， 士卒 師 徒 ， 器 械 被 具 ， 所 以 備 者 稱 此 。 今 大 王 縱 有 其 人 ， 何 塗 之 從 而 出？ 臣 竊 為 大 王私 憂 之 。 」


Yan Shuai replied,"Our poor state has long been deeply concerned for Your Majesty. The Tripods are not like pots of vinegar or jars of preserved meat which can be clasped to the breast or carried by hand to reach Qi; unlike the flocking and flying of birds and crows or the stopping and running of hares and horses, one cannot reach Qi by making furtive steps. In the past when Zhou brought down Yin and obtained the Nine Tripods, just one Tripod required nine myriad men to move it, thus nine times nine makes eighty and one myriad men in all, officers and soldiers, weapons and tools, all required much preparations. Today even should Your Majesty have all these men, by which route should they go? Privately your servant have presumed to be deeply troubled for your Majesty."

[lifezard]

I think the use of Yin to denote the dynasty must have occur rather early, if not our dear old dependable Sima Qian would not have used it. ....Having said that, in the Book of Songs and Book of Documents.. Shang(or Yin) documents and poems were referred Shang shu 商书 (books or documents of Shang) and Shang song 商颂 (songs of Shang) instead of Yin xx .. I trust the antiquity of 'Shu' and 'Shi' over books like Zhanguoce, Mengzi or even Zuozhuan, don't you.

Interestingly the Zhanguoce mentions Yin as well right at the start:

[fcharton]

I think the use of Yin to denote the dynasty must have occur rather early, if not our dear old dependable Sima Qian would not have used it. ....Having said that, in the Book of Songs and Book of Documents.. Shang(or Yin) documents and poems were referred Shang shu 商书 (books or documents of Shang) and Shang song 商颂 (songs of Shang) instead of Yin xx .. I trust the antiquity of 'Shu' and 'Shi' over books like Zhanguoce, Mengzi or even Zuozhuan, don't you.

I would agree for the Shijing. For the Shujing, the oldest chapters, which probably date from the western Zhou (and therefore are older than Mencius, the Zuozhuan and even the Chunqiu), are those which concern the Zhou dynasty. The chapters on Yao and Shun, the Xia and the establishment of the Shang are later additions. Specialists disagree on what "later" means here, but it is quite possible that they were written at a pretty late period, which might have been after the Mengzi and Zuozhuan (the Zhanguoce, again, is difficult to date).

Note also that tradition holds that the Shujing was destroyed by Qin Shihuang and reconstructed in the middle of the 2nd century BC, by Kong Anguo and others. So it is quite possible that some names of dynasties, emperors, etc... were edited relatively late.

This said, I would agree with you on the Shijing, this and your point on oracle bones, prove the antiquity of the word Shang. Does anyone know if these words (Shan and Yin) are found on Bronze inscriptions?

François

[lifezard]

I have read KC Chang s theory on this and I must say his ideas on Shang sucession seem very revolutionary, even if it was written more than 20 years back..because it very threatens what Sima Qian said in his Shiji.
Below is excerpt from regarding succession:

"汤崩，太子太丁未立而卒，于是乃立太丁之弟外丙，是为帝外丙。帝外丙即位三
年，崩，立外丙之弟中壬，是为帝中壬。帝中壬即位四年，崩，伊尹乃立太丁之子太
甲。太甲，成汤适长孙也，是为帝太甲。

Tang deceased, because Crown Prince Tai Ding predeceased him, Tai Ding's younger brother Wai Bing was installed as *King Wai Bing. Wai Bing died within 3 years of succeeding and his younger brother Zhong Ren was installed as *King Zhong Ren. Zhong Ren died within 4 years of succeeding. Yi Yin then installed Tai Ding's son Tai Jia as king. Tai Jia is eldest grandson of Tang..

KC Chang's theory, derived from the oracle bone records, however states the difference in lineage and even practices between the so-called 'Ding' line and the 'Yi' line after the 2 groups' most prominent 2 sub-groups. Because of this analysis, it implies that the reference of Tai Ding, Wai Bing and Zhong Ren as Tang( Da Yi)'s sons and Tai Jia as Tai Ding's son is almost certainly incorrect, because they belonged to different groups.

I am not entirelt convinced with KC Chang's theory... only thing I will agree is that every time there is a change from Yi line to Ding line and vice versa... there is a generation change. However, the solution may not have been so straight forward as KC Chang suggested... ( I am lost on any good ideas though)

Do we know (for certain) what system of succession they used during the Shang Dynasty? I recently read the book "Shang Civilization" by the late K.C. Chang, and in it, Chang presents his hypothesis, based on the names of the kings. The name of each king, and of each wife of a king, ends with one of the ten "celestial stems" ("day-signs"). (Apparently, in ancient times, a "week" that was 10 days long was used, & these were the names of the "days of the week".) Since a couple of these stems are much more common than others, Chang rejects the idea that they're based on day-of-birth or day-of-death. He classifies the stems into 2 groups, one including the stem "Yi" and one including the stem "Ding" ("Ting" in Wade-Giles). (These are the 2 most common stems in the names of Shang kings.) He notices (or it seems to him) that the stems appear in a kind of alternating pattern (alternating between the two groups). When a new king ascends the throne from a different/the next generation, his name contains a stem not from the same group as that of the previous king. But when a king from the same generation ascends the throne, his name will contain a stem from the same group as that of the previous king. (I think this situation is what Koolasuchus is referring to when he states that the king's [next] eldest sibling succeeds him upon his death.) In Chang's view, the 10 stems represent (10) smaller groups within the royal clan, which organized themselves into 2 main factions that shared power in the manner descibed above. Some parts of Chang's theory appeal to me, other parts bother me, and I have my own (alternative) hypothesis/idea/opinion about how Shang royal succession most likely worked...

However, I'd first like to hear from other posters, & hear their thoughts on the subject. (After all, this post is long-winded enough, & I don't want to be just "talking to myself". And perhaps I shouldn't assume that this topic is of interest to other posters. [If isn't, there's really no point in continuing it.]) So after this topic/post gets a few replies, I'll post again, & share my own ideas. If you think this post is either not clear enough or not brief enough, it's because I tried to make this post as brief as possible while making it so that someone who hadn't read the book I referred to could still get something out of it.