24 replies to this topic

[Yizhimei]

Hi, please have a glance at these maps:
http://map.huhai.net/41.jpg

When I see these maps, I can't help thinking that Vietnam or Annam -- named Jinghai at that time by the Tang government -- was in fact one of the fragments of the Tang dynasty, just like the Shu, the Southern Tang, or the Southern Han. May anyone tell me what time did the phrase "Wudai Shiguo" was first coined? I guess it was coined much later than that period, with a conception that Vietnam was not a part of China. Meanwhile, a person living in the period of Wudai Shiguo might have a totally different viewpoint to ours:

The Khuc, a native noble family, controlled the government of Jinghai since 906, and was officially appointed jiedushi by the Tang emperor in 907. The Tang dynasty was overthrown in the same year, and the succeeding Liang dynasty, as well as other dynasty in the Central Plains, continued to accept the Khuc jiedushis and their government in Jinghai. --> It was so much similar to the rulers of the Ten Kingdom, who had been an official of the Tang dynasty before seceding. --> It was even more similar to the Wuyue's case, who submitted to any government in the Central Plains, while fighting neighbouring states...

The invasion of the Southern Han troops in 923?? brought the rule of the Khuc in Jinghai to an end. However, one of the Khuc's generals, Duong Dinh Nghe, drove the Southern Han out of the prefecture and announced himself jiedushi in 930. After his assassination in 937, one of his generals, Ngo Quyen, seized the government and defeated another Southern Han's invasion. After that victory, Ngo Quyen proclaimed himself "king" (wang), not "emperor" --> which was simlar to other monarchs of the Ten Kingdoms. Besides, the Vietnamese historical books doesn't mention what is the name of Ngo Quyen's kingdom, and there are many theories that he even didn't think of naming his kingdom, or just continued to use the name "Jinghai" or "Jinghaijun". Only after Dinh Bo Linh ascended the throne in 968 that he proclaim emperor and named his state "Daguyue" (great and strong Viet).

Concludingly, the situation of Vietnam during the period 907-970 was so similar to the ten kingdoms that we may count Jing one of those kingdoms. Jinghai had been the territory of the Tang before, and its ruler had been the Tang jiedushi. They proclaim themselves jiedushi, wang, and then emperor, just like other rulers of the ten kingdoms. There were conflicts between Jinghai and the neighbouring states, notably Southern Han, just like other states. On that base, we can view the Song invasion of Annam in 980 not as an invasion, but just as a continuation of their wars against the Ten Kingdoms to unite China again. Had the Song been successful, there would have been no Vietnamese state today, and that period would have been named "Wutai Shiyiguo"

That is my humble opinion.

Edited by Yizhimei, 03 January 2006 - 11:54 AM.

[Yun]

On that base, we can view the Song invasion of Annam in 980 not as an invasion, but just as a continuation of their wars against the Ten Kingdoms to unite China again. Had the Song been successful, there would have been no Vietnamese state today, and that period would have been named "Wutai Shiyiguo"

On the Song invasion in 980/981, read my essay in this thread: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=3641

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

That's easy to understand. I don't see any Annamese had a major role in Chinese history. Why should the Annamese be unified with China

Edited by Yun, 03 January 2006 - 10:35 PM.

[Yun]

I think this will help others more than it helps you, but Ouyang Xiu's "New History of the Five Dynasties" (Xin Wudai Shi) has finally been translated completely into English:

http://www.columbia..../0231128266.HTM

There are two more primary sources in Chinese that you can use:
1) Sima Guang's Zizhi Tongjian, which covers Chinese history up to the beginning of Song
2) the semi-official Shiguo chunqiu 十國春秋 "Spring and Autumn of the Ten States" by Wu Renchen 吳任臣 of the Qing dynasty

[Chow Yun-Fat, PhD]

I think this will help others more than it helps you, but Ouyang Xiu's "New History of the Five Dynasties" (Xin Wudai Shi) has finally been translated completely into English:

http://www.columbia..../0231128266.HTM

I have been perusing just this book, in fact. Quoteworthy stuff

Edited by Chow Yun-Fat, PhD, 27 January 2009 - 12:48 AM.

[redhero]

for a more detailed introduction on this period, see the translation of ouyang xiu's the new history of the five dyansties, a fantastic translation work by richard davis.

Can someone tell me more about the 5 dynasties, 10 kingdoms and its history? What were they and who founded each dynasty? I'm trying to learn more about their history..

[redhero]

actually zizhi tongjian is a great work to complement the two histories of five dynasties.
but most interesting infomation about this time is contained in many unofficial historical works, like the tons of biji works compiled in the song dyansty

That's easy to understand. I don't see any Annamese had a major role in Chinese history. Why should the Annamese be unified with China

[SlickSlicer]

I have that translation and have been reading it a bit.

I've always liked the Kingdom of Wuyue and found Ouyang Xiu's assessment of them to be unfair. He argues that Qian Liu set out on his own because of a false prophecy and not because of any actual talent, but on the other hand I think Qian Liu was in fact a pretty apt commander. Moreover to me his kingdom seemed relatively long-lasting and stable for the period. In fact it seems to me that Ouyang Xiu had a pretty strong bias against most of the Southern States.

[Cathian]

Five dynasties and ten kingdoms is development from the Tang dynasty. In the late Tang, The empire was torn and even could not remain seemingly united, the warlords who had risen from the ranks became the virtual rules. The old order was broken, warlords were shouting：“Do the emperor have bule blood certainly？Just has a powerful army only！” Almost all had been embroiled in war, the nightmare of the memory was branded on Chinese mind.

两脚羊 和骨烂 烧把火 不羡羊...
These devils of the words can let us more or less feel that hellish brutality.

Edited by Cathian, 18 July 2011 - 11:13 PM.